Kip Powick Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 http://www.torontostar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1081980906521&call_pageid=968350072197&col=969048863851 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RKM Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 CAW never ceases to amaze. I got a better idea why not give the CAW the boot instead? It was a happy day for me when I burned my union card! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimer V Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 I was led to believe by my union leadership that investors were lining up for a shot at air canada.Heavens NO,,have i been decieved again.Richie,,give your head a shake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Lets face it...its over. Thanks ACPA, ALPA, CAW, CUPE, IAM and the most brilliant team of managers since Walter Mondale's presidential campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bugsy G Darren Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Seems to be everybody's fault except yours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 In this great socialist homeland, individuals have no say in the matter, this is left to the brain-trust of the unions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Got any suggestions Bugsy? A lot of us seem to be chomping at the bit to have our say... to do what we can to make it work... Our union leaders have the first and last word... Mine aren't listening to me. Our bosses aren't speaking much either... True, they've been told they can't "negotiate directly with employees", so that explains some sealed lips, but when trust is such a major issue, who's going to tell us the other side of the story as our union leaders are left standing there telling us their version of truth? I keep hearing all the "it's all your own fault" and "you're blaming everyone but yourselves" style comment, but all I see around me are peons like myself... along for a ride with virtually no means of grabbing hold of the tiller... What are we supposed to do? I haven't found a manual of step by step instructions for people in our position... Do you know what we need to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Okay Butthead G Darren, I will bite. The unions aren't listening to the membership, the management has never listened to the employees, so it must be my fault. Yah right. Tell me Einstein what should I bo doing that I am not doing now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Re investors, I surely wish I had the answer to that question but firstly you need to raise "public" concern. One of the problems you face, is that the "public" is not behind AC or it's employees. Except for a few individual attempts (Don, Mitch etc.) there has not been much exposure in the press showing a demonstrated concern from even the AC employees let alone the public in general. So I guess the answer is that the troops must be whipped up and appear in downtown areas, airports etc. to demonstrate their concern and make the public aware of what may happen. If the AC employees as a group do not go public then there is absolutely no hope of getting the rest of Canadians involved/concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Hi Mitch How much have you heard from back from Dave Ritchie after you correspond with him? Remember last year you sent an e-mail to Robert Milton. You got a phone call at home. When I've e-mailed RM I have always gotten a reply within about 24 hrs. I suppose everyone can draw their own conclusions about who listens to the troops. Incidently when I sent an e-mail to Don Johnson of ACPA recently I did receive a reply. Anybody get a reply from Buzz Hargrove or Pam Sachs? Greg Robinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Hiya Greg.. I don't have any doubts at all about who listens... (one small correction... the phone call came after a post on this site, not an email... not that it has any relevance. The man is reachable. My union leaders are in a league of their own!) The trust issue is what seems to be the biggest obstacle at the moment... Clips of comments from another website:"What makes you think they'll fund a DC pension any better than they've funded the DB pension?" "For the rest of you with your heads up your butts thinking DC was going to save AC.......if we had the choice, ask yourself when and where will it end." "Under the DC they can wind it up at a moments notice, I would not be surprised that this was not their full intention." "Remember before all this started? They (AC) agreed to several years of job protection for all union groups. Obviously, that promise was made of ice left in the summer sun. Specifically, for a case in point, AC agreed to job protection and raises with the Flight Attendants, then retracted it only a few months later as they went into CCAA. I suppose they were unaware of the predicament they were in at the time of signing the deal. Then, AC makes a promise that they will not touch the pensions and benefits (medical) in exchange for over a billion dollars in concessions. We were lucky to keep our jobs (not all of them, mind you) in return. Not one year later, they cannot keep that promise either. I will not negotiate with people like that." [Regarding the option to stay with the DB pension:] "You will lose the power to keep it eventually or the power to keep it indexed because the future employees won't care. Think about the future." "as for protecting our DB rights. hey great idea! i just don't think that they will be maintained but instead bargined away by the growing DC membership. what do they care about a bunch of guys that voted them out of the chance of the DB plan?" "what makes you think the companyis going to set up a DC plan that is planned around your interests? they will direct this plan as they see fit and when they screw it up it will be you and i left without our retirement funds." "want a DC plan? come talk to me when the people we are dealing with have proven themselves to be something better than a group of modern day robber barons intent on exploiting labour for their own financial gains. come talk to me when management has finally taken their portion of the blame for ythis company's downfall and apologized for laying it all on their lazy, shiftless, uncompromising employees and their bedeviled unions! do that and maybe we'll get somewhere."I can't answer all of that... though I've tried... the folks who could, either aren't interested in spreading truth, or wouldn't be trusted anyway. I haven't communicated with Ritchie directly, but I've got good reason to believe he knows who I am and how I feel... The guy I did communicate with, the president of the IAM's District Lodge 140 (who I believed was my most direct representative), didn't seem to be listening, didn't answer my communications, but when he suddenly changed course and tried to do exactly as I'd been asking him to do, he was removed from his post by Ritchie and Buffenburger (the IAM's Grand Lodge President). All I can say at this point is it doesn't sit too well with me when someone tells me it's "your own fault". There are dictators and power hungry pirates on the loose here and there... They're not letting the crew anywhere near the bridge! This whole scene should be made into a documentary to show what horrors can happen when the value of communication is trod upon. I remain thoroughly disgusted... Dave Ritchie might represent a majority of my colleagues, but I don't think so, and I'm pretty damned sure he doesn't want anyone to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bugsy G Darren Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Nothing is stopping you from organizing the troops and taking a vote, put more pressure on the leadership of the unions. Personnaly I think Robert has been telling you the truth all along. It's really hard to hear him over all the rhetoric from the union bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Simply put - take control or AC will just be a story (fairy tale) that you tell your grandchildren about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bugsy G Darren Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Mitch, I don't hear the membership putting the pressure on the union bosses. It is your future, not Ritchies, there is nothing wrong with the membership voicing there displeasure with the direction of the unions strategy. After all it is a democracy, isn't it??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arctic Ace Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Mitch had the right idea. The public and paricularly the investment community need to know that the employees are not behind their unions. This would require a huge rally with a tremendous turnout carrying the message that the employees will do what it takes and the unions will be told to pound sand in the not too distant future. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Rudder... I'm an aircraft mechanic, not a people man. I can take control of a car, a boat, an airplane, or any other damn machine that someone puts in front of me... I can figure out what makes things work, how they work, and why they don't work... and I can figure what's needed to fix almost any broken machine... People, however????.... I couldn't rally enough support to have a good booze up in the middle of a desert. This one will take someone who's got some skills in that area... I once hoped RM might be the man to do so... I think he's got the skills, but doesn't know how to use them.... or maybe doesn't want to?... Take control eh?... hmm. I Don't believe that's a job for me... Anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Every contract negotiation is a battle. The system is designed to be them against us. Every battle destroys trust and everybody loses. We desparately need a new way of talking to each other. I think one of the impediments is in having AC employees belonging to the same unions that represent auto workers, teachers etc. I am a strong believer in unions only representing employees in one company, such as ACPA, where conflict of interest issues with employees in other companies or industries are eliminated. Right now AC employees are being held up as hostages because of the divergent interests of the CAW and the IAM. Is your job worth more or less than the protection of a GM workers pension plan? The problem isn't all one way however and to work together would take an adjustment on both sides. The old model of union/management relations is broken and it better change quickly, or there is going to be a lot of hurting people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Mitch, I did not necessarily mean you individually but rather the employees collectively within their respective bargaining units. Lots of news articles ruminating the world after an AC liquidation. That is not a positive sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 And a petition, and an organized phone campaign, organized interviews on local media outlets, I.E. radio TV Newspapers etc. This is all stuff they teach the labour reps when they get into office. What they don't teach them is how to make wise choices. Maybe a brief with-holding of dues would get their attention. This is a trick they teach Corp. executives in bargaining school. When you've had enough BS...grab them by the nuts and make them choke for a few seconds. Of course you can, all it takes is motivation and energy. GTFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimer V Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 That may get our leadership's attention.A place to start..now how to rally the troops,thats the biggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 600 individuals (union and non-union) rallied outside company headquarters so why wouldn't 600 or more show up at union headquarters? All it takes is someone to lead the charge and if AC people are so apathetic that they don't show up then they deserve whatever comes to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Gapper Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Where Oh Where have the investors gone?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimer V Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Oh where,oh where can they be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JakeYYZ Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Before we get into the machete hacking - How many CA’s has ACPA negotiated? How many WITHOUT a work stoppage? “Right now AC employees are being held up as hostages because of the divergent interests of the CAW and the IAM.” This statement leaves me with the impression that ACPA has agreed to the pension switch. Is that so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 My understanding is that ACPA wasn't the problem in negotiations. This is only based on second hand information, but I believe it is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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