Mitch Cronin Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 ...Hope I'm not too far out in left field here... Hypothetically, if AC were to find enough work for current ACPA folks by leasing a few more wide bodied things and/or more 320(ish) airplanes, ...enough so all currently furloughed pilots could be recalled... so no ACPA members were out of work... Would they then be ok with all the little RJ's, new and old, going to the Jazz group? If not, why not? Would ACPA really want to stand in the way of sound business economics (providing of course that's what it turns out to be), even if none of their current members were effected? How many more larger aircraft would we need before all current ACPA folk are back at work? Does anyone here know? or have any educated guesses?... Are routes yet available to find that work? ...is it worth exploring? Or is there something I'm not thinking of that would still make that some kind of a bad move from ACPA's perspective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kilo Mike Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Hi Mitch. The slippery slope here is what the CAIL folks experienced with the F28 let. The request for a few F28's blossomed to a whole massive fleet that caused career stagnation at CAIL. Guys sat at the bottom of the T-rex watching CRA grow and do routes that were done by CAIL. The only solution is a proportioned one where the company can't grow one unit at the expense of the other. ACPA's scope clause allows for this with it's ASM restrictions. KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest directlaw Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 .02 Regional Aircraft .01 ACR and/or CRA may operate the following numbers and types of aircraft for the purpose of providing feed to the Air Canada network: A combined ACR/CRA maximum of thirty-nine (39) SJ (small jet) active aircraft as a baseline, subject to the following exceptions: Any SP or MP aircraft. .02 ACR/CRA may operate one (1) additional SJ aircraft for each one and one-half (1.5) WJ, three (3) NJ, or six MJ aircraft, or any prorated combination (e.g. two (2) NJs + two (2) MJs) added to the AC/CAIL fleet in excess of two hundred and fourteen (214) active NJ and WJ aircraft provided that: (i) (i) on every occasion a CL-65 is transferred from the AC/CAIL fleet to the ACR/CRA fleet, or are otherwise removed from the AC/CAIL fleet, the two hundred and fourteen (214) number will increase by one (1) until it reaches two hundred and thirty-nine (239); and (ii) (ii) only WJ active aircraft in excess of seventy ( 7)1 are to be taken into account for the purposes of adding SJ to the ACR/CRA fleet; and (iii) (iii) All twenty-five (25) CL-65 aircraft have been transferred to ACR/CRA before adding SJ aircraft to ACR/CRA in excess of thirty-nine (39). .03 In the event that active aircraft is/are removed from the AC/CAIL fleet, SJ active aircraft will also be removed from the ACR/CRA fleet using the same ratios. If the reduction in active aircraft at AC/CAIL is due to circumstances beyond Air Canada’s control that are not recurring and are temporary in nature (i.e. less than six months), the number of SJ aircraft at ACR/CRA need not be reduced. Should the circumstances not be resolved after six months the number of SJ active aircraft at ACR/CRA must be reduced by the appropriate amount. .04 Should CRA be sold as a result of the mandatory sale process, the baseline established in Article 1.09.02.01 will remain unchanged in order to protect feed to the AC network. .05 Air Canada shall ensure that ACR/CRA do not operate any international flying or transborder flying other than flights between Canada and the United States of America (excluding Alaska and Hawaii). .06 Air Canada shall ensure that ACR/CRA do not wet lease any aircraft other than SP, MP, or SJ aircraft. Any aircraft wet leased by ACR/CRA shall be considered to be operated by ACR/CRA for the purposes of any aircraft and ASM limitations. .07 Air Canada shall ensure that a minimum of one hundred (100) ASMs are flown at AC/CAIL for every twelve (12) ASMs flown by ACR/CRA. This limit will remain in effect if CRA is divested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted January 24, 2004 Author Share Posted January 24, 2004 Howdy KM... Re: "The only solution is a proportioned one where the company can't grow one unit at the expense of the other. ACPA's scope clause allows for this with it's ASM restrictions." So if the asm restrictions were adjusted to settle this current battle, the potential for future losses is unacceptable? Or is any adjustment of those restrictions already provided for, predicated on mainline growth? Surely Jazz growth into ACPA's flying, with a limited size of a/c, as well as economics, is somewhat restricted already? Hard for Jazz to grow into routes that mainline flies larger equipment on, when that larger equipment is needed for either the asm's or the range. And if the larger equipment isn't needed there, why not give it up?.... providing the flying can be done elsewhere, so no ACPA pilots will be without work? YYZ-YUL for example... I haven't any idea what frequencies and what equipment we currently use... but perhaps it's usually economical to fly a 320 8 times a day... Surely it wouldn't make any better sense economically to put 16 rj's on it? And I don't think we'll be seeing any rj's doing YYZ-YVR runs... So the limits may already exist, without any fight, or need for any "scope" other than size of a/c, if the ACPA folks have enough flying elsewhere? Is it ridiculous to be considering any ideas that enough flying for the mainline folk could be had, while giving up on the RJ's? I really don't know. I do know it'd be very nice to find a solution soon. And one that both groups can be reasonably happy with.... If I'm reading all these comments right, it sounds to me like a wrong (read undesireable from an ACPA perspective) decision by the powers that be could lead to a very serious situation.... Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimer V Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 As long as we have the same people steering the mother ship we'll be in this mess again. Not my words,they were talking about shorting the new shares when they are issued. So while you guys are fighting about who will fly what,the mother ship will be doing another Titanic.ACPA IMHO is right for fighting for there membership,thats why we pay union dues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BillyBigToe Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Mitch, Its about more than just "having a job", for better or worse because of the way pilots are paid these jet jobs are important. The left seat on the 190, for example, will pay a pretty good buck. I know many posters here will disagree, but we see these jobs as already ours. Now we are being asked to negotiate and compromise. Calin sold a car to two parties, in fact he sold a car that was already sold to a second party. We fought long and hard to have scope in our contract, the company signed on the bottom line. Our scope language was not given away this past summer. As a compromise, bring all the jets to mainline with a flow through for Jazz. Of course Jazz would never agree to this, even if it meant all their pilots would have a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 With all due respect, KM, the world has changed, irrevocably. Worrying about career development is one thing. You should be concerned about having a career. WJ is changing the rules, and the consumer is not going back to the old ways. If a smaller jet run with the lowest costs possible is how AC can offer a uniform pricing regime with unrestricted discount fares across its network, then the fleet plan and the costs associated with it have to priority over career development aspirations of pilots. Sure, more regional jets might mean a slower advancement for an A319 first officer than in the old days. Then again, if the company is profitable (which CP rarely was) then there could also be more widebody growth internationally, and hence compensating factors at the mainline that aid career advancement. I don't think you can use CAIL's F28 experience as a valid model for what might happen, or should happen, to make AC a long-term venture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idle Thrust Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Dagger, I won't dispute your take on the validity of the F-28 model but there was a parallel case at AC some 20 years or so ago. At that time Air Ontario and Air Nova grew from virtually nothing to substantial operations, including jets, largely by replacing AC on traditional AC routes. During that time the AC pilot staff saw little or no growth, avoided layoffs by virtue of reduced hours, while watching the feeders grow. That's the whole reason for scope. The alternative is common employer but ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 ACTUALLY!!! The whole reason for the scope was to prevent the company from transferring work to the regionals while the seniority lists were being merged. Afterwhich the co. could have put whatever aircraft it wanted where ever they were best suited while ALL the pilots in the AC family would have the benefit of bidding on whatever positions they wished. Unfortunately back then there were too few people who realized the right thing to do, while there were too many people who didn't. It was so simple back then. It is so complicated now! Dazed and Confused, GTFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 and there is a word for it: FRAUD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrr Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 That is why it is still very likely that AC will fail all together. What will we have to "fight" for when there is no company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jazzplayer Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 BBT When you talk "flow through" you are saying "end tail" and you are saying my 15 years of senority are completley irrelevant and worthless. I get to start over at age 47 because you, through strongarming, will prevent me "a regional pilot" from flying "regional equipment". Stop and think for a moment how attractive a flow through to the bottom of Jazz's list would look for you. "Flow through" may be attractive to junior members at Jazz who have not acquired much senority and is tantamount to them quitting the regional and joining the mainline without much loss. My career on the other hand is devastated because my options are to start over, or stagnate and die in a dead end job or attempt to go somewhere else at this late stage in the game. Not very palatable options that are forced on me by absolutely no fault of my own all because I have chosen to fly regional instead of mainline. We (both groups) have let this thing fester for too long and now we are in this mess that seems unsolvable. So you see, a lot of the regional pilots are beyond repair in that they are here to stay for better or worse. You on the other hand have no where to go but up even without growth the AC retirements would take care of everybody. A very unfortunate set of circumstances for regional members that could have been solved by ACPA many times. I know this goes way back to the inception of the regionals but that should have been solved through Picher. There is an equitable and fair solution that has been blinded by corruption, greed and ignorance. I would say that ACPA has inflicted far more damage on the regionals than the other way around. You say that Calin sold us both the same car, that may be true but doesn't discount the fact that Jazz paid for it. We as two groups need to solve this problem once and for all and I know that ALPA has held out the olive branch many times. I think that ACPA's scorched earth policy better change quickly for the good of the entire company and all employee groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted January 24, 2004 Author Share Posted January 24, 2004 Re: "When you talk "flow through" you are saying "end tail" and you are saying my 15 years of senority are completley irrelevant and worthless." What if that "end-tail" were looked at more as a new set of options available for the senior Jazz pilots? If there were no RJ's at the mainline, that'd mean the bottom end of mainline flying would be a right seat in a 319 (discounting ZIP's 37's for now)... is that so unattractive, financially, that none of you would want it?... and from there, all the rest of mainline flying as you advanced due to retirements etc...? Would it take a "red circle" on your wage to make it viable? Is there no way to "flow through" that'd satisfy your needs and avoid disadvantaging ACPA folk to the point they'd squash it if they could? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 So are you willing to "give" me my 12 years back that I had at the regional? No,. I didnt think so!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jazzplayer Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Sounds like a good plan to me and yes you could have your regional start date. That would be fair. Any date that you started in what has amalgamated and merged into the current mess would be fair because you should have taken your years with you when you flowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest directlaw Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Air Canada has so far received 1.1 billion from the employees. Excluding aircraft leases, which have been reduced, most of Air Canada’s long term debt is gone. We have had Creditors fighting over access to more future Air Canada stock. Trinity and Cerabus fighting over who gets provide exit financing. Trinity has committed to being a long term player. If Air Canada is doomed why would any of these groups want anything to do with Air Canada? Jazz claims Air Canada will save 100 million if the new jets are flown by them. I know 100 million is a lot of money, assuming I can trust that number, but can you prove your claim that it will cause Air Canada’s demise? Otherwise all you are doing is asking the Labor Board to gut ACPA’s collective agreement so that Air Canada can make an extra 100 million. I’m sure there are a lot of corporations in Canada that would like to be more profitable. The Labor Board is going to get very busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 "Otherwise all you are doing is asking the Labor Board to gut ACPA’s collective agreement so that Air Canada can make an extra 100 million." It be really nice if AC could find a way, any way to actually make 100M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest directlaw Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 You didn’t answer the question. I’ll make it more clear for you. This is one of two things. 1.) An honest attempt by Air Canada and Jazz to prevent the eventual demise of Air Canada. 2.) Or, an opportunistic attack on ACPA’s collective agreement for the sole benefit of Air Canada and Jazz employees. Prove to me it is number 1, because if it is I’ll be on board with you. I don’t, nor could I imagine anyone within ACPA, want to see Air Canada fail. If you know something I don’t pass it along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 What is "it" for certain? I don't know as I not privy to the board room activities. In a perfect world it would be number 1 for sure but based on management performance todate I'd only be guessing like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sawbones Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Totally agree, Jazz Player! You should have had your rightful place on the list years ago (with some fences to protect the immediate concerns of the AC pilots). Had the AC pilots not blocked your legitimate claim to common employer, and run off to form ACPA, there would be a lot fewer problems in the aviation industry today. The question of who is going to fly what, wouldn't be an issue ... whatever your seniority entitles you to do. Pilots cannot control what aircraft the corporation chooses to operate, but at least all those aircraft will be flown by pilots on ONE seniority list. Tough to solve now after all these years, but not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 317 Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Sorry guys, but you plan your career. I turned down an opportunity at the regionals 5 years ago for a shot at AC. I stood buy and watched very junior pilots go to the regionals. Now that I am finally at AC and am on furlough status, I WILL NOT SEE ONE JAZZ EMPLOYEE get anything but BOTL if it comes to it. You joined a REGIONAL airline and new it when you were hired. Unfortunately the age factor for many of the senior guys at Jazz makes a BOTL very unattractive at AC. As I said at the beginning of my post, you plan your career; and if it was too tough to leave you senior schedule and pay when you had the chance to go to AC….don’t expect to be given it now!!!! Club 317er Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BillyBigToe Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 It’s so tiring to continue hearing how all the troubles at Jazz are because of big bad ACPA. Tell me, do you realize where you would be sitting right now if you had taken a flow through at the beginning as CRA did? No, that was not even presented as an option because of the minority who thought they were entitled to greater things. How would the MAJORITY of the AC Regional group been served if a flow through agreement would have been put in place right from the start? Bottom of the list may not look great now, but 320 captain for the first guys through the door is pretty good. That’s what senior ACR pilots would hold right now if they had taken it. So, while ACPA may have done some things that were in the best interest of ACPA’s pilots, that have not helped other groups, too bad. A comparison of you being end tailed with us is not the same as me being end tailed with you. To state the obvious, the bottom of our positions just about lines up with the top of your positions ( with the exception of RJ F/O ). Also I didn’t mention anything about us flowing down into the top of your list, ( a whole other problem to be solved ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sawbones Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 You said ... "you plan your career" Sorry, newsflash! Plans can change. Did you plan to work for a bankrupt airline? Did you plan for mergers? 9-11? Did the pilots of Eastern, Braniff and TWA, to name a few, plan for their careers to end in such a fashion? Can you not see that a combined workforce of pilots would be vastly superior to the situation we are in today? You may be "finally at AC" but there could be no benefit to this achievement if work is diverted to Jazz. The only way to prevent total devastation is to share the work. The Company is loving this divisive attitude amongst the employees. Merging a seniority list is only part of the solution and you should not have the attitude that "not one Jazz employee (will) get anything but BOTL." Very short-sighted in my opinion. Fences can and will solve immediate, short-term disparaties within a list, and the long-term benefits to your career will be repaid in spades. Hang around in the industry for 30 years and then tell me if I'm right or wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jazzplayer Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Your going to see to that personally are you? With all your years of experience and humble decision making prowess. You guys are an embarassing joke, as BillyBigMouth up above makes his comparison between endtails and his looking down on the regional pilots from perch on high. His lowliest position at the mainline still much higher than the highest position that a Jazz pilot might have hoped to aspire to. We all have the same licence and backgrounds (except for the guy who tried to land in Vernon and of course that pedophile AC RJ Captain and a couple of other guys with steel plates in their heads), but that aside we are all the same and you guys are there by accident, nothing more nothing less, and you are staying there because of misuse of power, certainly not economics or group merit or from the love of fellow employees. So wake up boys and try and save your souls before it is too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrr Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Some of you guys just don't get it. No company, no collective agreement. You have to do what it takes to make the opoeration sustainable, or you'll be kicking rocks in the unemployment line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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