Mitch Cronin Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 There's a man in charge at our company.... I know that because I see his name on communications from the company, and because he called me at home recently to defend himself after I layed out here what I felt was his record of failure. I suppose I may get fired for what I'm saying now, but if so, it only proves he's lost control. And I doubt he could make it stick in any case. But it's pretty hard to imagine there is anyone at the helm these days.... The ship has run aground and all hands are doing what they can to back her off the sand bar... But, though we hear tell of some of his actions, I personally can't hear any of the shouts from the bridge... Can you? Leadership means so much more than securing deals with creditors, and hammering out deals with powerless unions... it involves a presence, if it's to be effective. Where is this man????? Airmail? Dagger? Anyone?.... I know, he's a busy man... "too busy to run the airline" won't do these days! Somehow I doubt Clive is as invisible... If we're to compete with such an outfit, we ought not to be disadvantaged from the outset. We need to see and hear our leadership in action... Rallying the troops isn't just a way to pass wind! IMO. Mitch Cronin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nova Zemlya Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Hey, Mitch- don't worry- Its just: "Our strategy is to proactively network real-time supply-chains." Simple as that. :[ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 What kind of leadership do you want Mitch. Do you want Milton, or someone else, to go out an antagonize his pilots even more (whichever camp they are in)? Do you want him to pre-empt judge Farley, or pizz off creditors (this is the next group up for a USMC brushcut.)? There is a point where one can say, Welcome to the New Air Canada! Or, This is our first day without SARS! I'm really not sure this is the time. So what are you looking for? A pat on the back and reassurance that everything will be alright? I submit to you that even if Milton believed that, he could do more damage by uttering it and perhaps inspiring pilots to vote NO. So what are you looking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted June 23, 2003 Author Share Posted June 23, 2003 Fair question. I'm looking for assurances... encouragement... pep talks... anything that could let all of us know that we're all in this together and there is in fact someone who has some vision manning the helm! It may be a lot to ask, but the silence, his absence, only serves to allow the rabid dissapointment fester. It's really hard to find anyone within our ranks that has even as much confidence as I had after my chat with him.... I took a lot of heat as I dared to offer a devils advocate point of view, or to explain I thought he at least had the courage to confront me for my comments. He genuinely impressed me for taking the time to chat, but I'm just one small fry, there's a horde of others who could do with some evidence that our captain is worthy of the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nova Zemlya Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 that: "the strategy is to proactively revolutionize leading-edge markets." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Give me a break Mitch! You admitted in your own post that this is a CEO who took the time to call YOU! He can't be everywhere, all the time. He's a human being for goodness sakes! Do you listen to his voicemail recordings? Do you read his letters? It seems to me that the focus is now on the unions to get the deals ratified. Just because your union has ratified their deal does not mean everything's complete. CUPE still has not ratified and we all know where ACPA is at right now. So what do you expect Milton to do until June 30 when all the deals are ratified? If he speaks too soon, he could be accused of not respecting the democratic rights of union members to vote or pre-empting a vote. If he says something on the pilot seniority issue, he risks pi$$ing off one side or another. It seems to me that Milton has done exactly what he has to do which is bring this restructuring through each stage of the process one step at a time. So exactly what do you want him to do? Tell you that everything will be alright because all the TAs will be ratified? Imagine what people would say about his "interference" in a union vote if he did that! Tell you that everything will be alright because the lessors will be forced into submission? Imagine what the lessors' lawyers would do with that kind of statement! If you took the time to read Aeronet, you'll see that Milton's last recorded message to employees was June 11th, barely two weeks ago and he's averaged a recorded message every two weeks -- which seems quite enough to me. So should it be a weekly message? A daily one? Twice a day? Exactly what do you want him to be saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 "Silence"? "Absence"? What's that all about? I know you've been desperately trying to get him to dialogue with you online (I guess a phone call isn't enough?) but how exactly has he been silent and absent? What issue is he supposed to make a comment about? Seniority? Ratification? If so, what exactly do you want him to say about either subject and not get into trouble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted June 24, 2003 Author Share Posted June 24, 2003 I'll respond to both your posts here.... Recorded messages are crap. Written messages on the pages of aeronet are crap. Dialogue, here, on the hangar floor, in the pointy end of a flying machine, in the terminal, out on the tarmac, or in the parking lot would have one hell of a lot more meaning. I'm not so desperate to engage him myself, but are you so blind that you can't see the massive distrust and discontent virtually oozing out of every corner? In all walks of our many cornered empire there are oodles of folks who's livelihoods are depending on some sensible leadership, and the trust is seriously lacking. Sure, record a message.... Big impact eh? Nope. I don't care at all if he's not interested in talking here, but someplace he really oughta let people know that he's alive and sweating along with all of us peons... That is, if he wants to be a leader. The job may demand a lot, but if he's going to ask (and he has!) for a WJ style relationship, he better quit the Royal wave from the damn tape machine and get his ass out on the floor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted June 24, 2003 Author Share Posted June 24, 2003 I'm sorry, I got carried away with my thoughts there and forgot to address your question... What issue would I like him to address? Thats a hell of a question... How 'bout saying what he thinks of the need to ratify all the agreements... He answered my question about the 6 year contract in private, but he could have done so here just as well... How 'bout talking about employee/employer relationships and management style... Or what direction we may be headed, or what his hopes are for the future... or even just letting folks know that he's tuned in the the many obstacles that confront us all... and listening to the myriad of bitches about the appearance of upper management being out of touch... Good grief, there's a hundred and one things he could talk to us about... Any of it could work wonders toward improving moralle simply by letting folks see he's got two eyes, two ears, a nose and a mouth and he puts on his pants one leg at a time... I don't know, maybe his plans are for a speedy exit after all this ends, but if he's planning to stick around to help us improve this airline, he could do a lot better for his employees by being more real to more people than just some dick who &%$@! him off by criticizing him on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southshore Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 I've met the guy. He was forthright (as far as I was concerned but I don't expect to get the goods on the latest board meeting either). He met all the crew. He visited passengers. He was engaging. I don't know what else to expect from the guy on a personal level. You want him out there. OK. Who wouldn't. My problem is if he's out there with YOU in YZ and me and every other buddy who's just GOTTA bitch about something, when does he spend time in Montreal and New York actually fixing the thing. There are only 24 hours in a day. This is NOT WJ!! WJ is smaller right now than the old Air Nova. Clive can glad hand down the hall. Not from VR to YT. I want results too but you gotta be real here - that he called you means he's trying to listen but he can't be all things to all people. After years of dealing with communication issues from the cockpit when, no matter HOW hard I tried, somebody would say, "you didn't tell me what I wanted to hear", I'm going to try and give the guy some space on the most complicated restructuring I can imagine. ACPA not withstanding - some people you can't please. They're just gonna love EI, if they don't get a clue. Here's hoping. PS - how's the relapse recovery going? I'm rootin' fer ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundeffect Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 South Shore, I don't know your history/vested interest, but you must realise the MEC for ACPA has endorsed and encoureged a vote FOR the TA. The point to hold off voting was for the members who do not disassociate the Keller arbitration{rape} from the TA. IE they do not want folks to vote NO based on the arbitration alone. That is how I read the statement,based on the e-mail from acpa hq...my op only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southshore Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Johnson and Bauer kind of quibbled initially (in my mind) about how serious the importance of the TA ratification is. Now they are laying in the bed they made. Folks being ticked at Keller had absolutely NOTHING to do with the TA - one way or the other. Gone is gone. If they want to go on EI - quit and go, but don't confuse the issues. Your leadership has come to understand this - so should the membership. A 'no' vote is a good long pee into the wind that ALL of the employees and families are facing into. We are not going to take kindly to that, for sure. Just make certain that the ACPA membership understands this all clearly. Your leadership recommends you take a big deep breath before you vote. That's the best advise I've heard them give yet. regards and good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundeffect Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 I do not know who the 'we' is in your scenerio..the spokesmen for 'our' union have endorsed the TA since the get-go. You seem to think it ok to question mitchnick.. why is it so hard for you to accept that the oac will question Keller? I speak for myself only. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southshore Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 i remember seeing D. J. on tv saying they didn't know if they would recommend acceptance of the TA by the membership or not. Maybe I was dreaming (or having a nightmare) but this could not help but fuel discontent or confuse the issue in the minds of members. Clumsy at best. Then came Keller. I understand that you understand the situ. You better start working the phones before we all end up walking the streets. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 With all due respect, what happens if Lordon sends ACPA packing? Does everyone wait until ACPA gets their arguements through the Federal Court and then the SCC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundeffect Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 The MEC does indeed on record, reccomend the acceptance of the TA. Hey I just fly the things Hoping for the best...and will vote yea {with deep reservations} Regards DR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundeffect Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 That Defcon {3} hehe will indeed be decided on thursday. I hear your concern..I have no answer to it. Don't know man. All I can say is to all DOH proponents, is that the system gave you a fair shake...well, we hope {the decimated} for a fair hearing as well. I have to re-iterate {sp} though, the MEC has publicly stated, it endorses the TA. This hold off from voting ,is only a cool down for those who do not disassociate the TA from Keller. Of course that is my opinon only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southshore Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 I understand your reservations but this is not a happy time for any of us. The thing for all to remember is that it is not RM, CR, JR, RB, DJ, BH, or any other set of letters you want to assign that we have to satisfy. The creditors are in the drivers seat. They are tired and want some money. They don't care about us. They don't care about our kids. They don't care about our pensions or rrsp's. They care about their money. I care about anything that will let them get some money so I will get some money. I'm hugel;y sorry about the folks that are going out but, hopefully, one side or the other, we will have themn all back someday. However, we have to live to fight another day. Vote the TA down and it's a done deal. Ken Rowe is rubbing his hands as we type. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundeffect Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 I do agree with you Southshore. I think it was T Jerrard who said in the crew room the other day..better to live and fight another day. I don't like it..and I won't even open the can o'worms what my 'personal' fate will incur...but I agree..lets get 'our' company back on it's feet. my op only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted June 24, 2003 Author Share Posted June 24, 2003 Fair comments, all. I've been considering my hopes and wishes a fair bit since I posted those thoughts.... I don't think I'm offside. The truth is that in all the conversations I've had with our cohorts at work there's a common thread running throughout that our management is out of touch. All of the guys I've talked with about Milton have repeated the same complaints about him... To paraphrase; He's too distant... He doesn't have a clue... He's scheming... He's a union buster... He collects his massive coin and craps all over his employees... etc... I started sounding like an apologist for him for a while after our chat... I made it known that he's reachable, he spared some time to yak with little old me for cripes sakes!... Some guys thought they'd email him... But they all (and I mean ALL, everyone, to the man) thought he was too out of touch with the nitty gritty of the airline business to be the right man to lead us out of this heap of trouble. (and more comments that I can't see any point in repeating here) That was what got me thinking he could do himself, and all of us, some good by engaging in some dialogue... Here might be a good place.... Maybe there's a better place? But somewhere, he could engage in two way communication and at least let people see that he's trying to see the big picture AND the nitty gritty dirt bag nonsense of every day frustrations we all experience. Unfortunately, there'd be a lot of piddly little complaints that should be dealt with on a much more local scale that he'd have to endure... Especially if he were to do so on an employee site of some kind... That's why I think here might be a better place. It's a lot harder for many people to air their petty little squawks in such a public forum. (although, some of us don't seem to find that difficult at all ) I do understand he's a busy man.... My wife just tore a strip off of me for what I've said here... telling me all potential legal issues would be enough to make it impossible... But I don't buy it. I can't see why he couldn't say, for instance, "Damn I hope you pilots ratify your contract!"... Where's the legal trouble in that? Of course he hopes so!! But to hear the guy say it (or read it), and to be able to respond, means a lot more. Hell, I'm only a mechanic. I fix airplanes, I don't fix airlines, that's his job... So maybe I am offside... But it seems to me a little visible leadership could go a long way toward rallying us all. Is this company so bloody big and full of beurocracy that all we can get is taped messages from the Taj Mahal? If so, then I don't know how we can hope to survive the troubles that await us all. But I'm gonna try my best anyway. No good fixes ever come from avoiding the problems, that I know of. Cheers, Mitch PS. I'm afraid I've lost the battle with the damned wicked weed for the moment... I still haven't told my kids yet... I'm hoping to try again soon enough that I won't have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimer V Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Wilky Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Mitch, Zyban. Keeps you happy and weed free! "ask your physician about Zyban". Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southshore Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 he'd be able to reply to individual emails except by a bulk reply in which case he gets scorched for 'not being personal or out of touch". Like I said - he can't win. There is no doubt, the mistakes were made. They waited for the J travel to come back. it didn't - they have to rejig. that's where we come in. We can prosper but not like the ACPA folks who wanted to be paid like United. They may well get their wish - at least for the bottom end, unfortunately. Having a job in this business - ah god, it gets tiring - why is it neccessary to have to explain this. I'm here. I want to stay here. On our worst days it's better than most folks. Damn this is stupid. I'm going to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted June 24, 2003 Author Share Posted June 24, 2003 Not stupid... worth saying... G'night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Mitch: If everything he does to try to reach 40,000 employees is "crap" how do you propose he does so to ensure that ALL employees have equal access to the same information at the same time? Having coffee with the boys on the shop floor sounds great but do you expect him to do it on every shift at every base every time he has something to share? It seems to me that you're precisely the type of person who seems to think you're the centre of the universe -- that somehow the CEO has got nothing better to do than to chat with you and that even if he does, it's all just "crap". All the issues you want addressed have been addressed by him -- if you took the time to listen to recorded messages and read letters he's written, you'll see -- but no, since these widely accepted communications media are "crap", you won't bother taking the time. So instead of wondering why you're not being spoon fed information, go find it because MOST (if not all) the issues you raised can be found on the Aeronet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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