Guest jzdude Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Well we went to the meeting today in YUL. I tell you these guys are a bunch of spin doctors and fear mongeres. They have no qualms on taking money from the company in the form of their "enhancement fund" but when it comes to giving that up, that's a big no-no. When asked if they asked for buy-out packages for the older f/a's they replied that they did not think it would be worth it. I know of at least 20 f/a's that would LOVE to take the kind of package that AC is giving it's f/a's. But the Teamsters does not think that saveing at LEAST 20 jobs would be worth it. They have announced that there are going to be 90 more layoffs, the time is yet to be determined. When we questioned the Union about the cuts that other unions were taking they replied that they did not have any #'s, yet when we started to quote stuff all of a sudden they found a sheet with details on it. If this is not enough for you not to trust this Union, I don't no what is. Anyways we all voted no and hopefully you will see the light. If this union really has our best interest in mind why is it they get so defensive when confronted with logical questions?? Anyways just our thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jazz1 Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Good on ya jzdude lets hope the momentum keeps rolling as the meetings head west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sleveen Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 You guys are fools, your T/A cannot be compared to the T/A of other groups, Each group was given a target to reach, how that was done was up to the individual MECs, negoitiated on what they thought would best serve their group. Thats it, theres no "well the pilot group only took this much of a pay cut and the wrench's only took that much with no layoff" give your f$%^()g head a shake people. If you dont like it go get another job, bet you won't find one paying the money/days off/travel/pension even with your new T/A in place. Open your eyes, this is it, the real world, Welcome to it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest givemeabreak Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Nobody said they were rocket scientists sleveen. Remember they are F/A's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nova Zemlya Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Anyone desirous of relieving their impoverished employer may voluntarily lay off a good 40% of their co-workers, and demand that everybody adheres to the lowest pay scale without question, including themselves. The regional airline can expect a fundamental change at this point of the support & motivation of their flight attendants because of the parochial attitude of management towards the position of regional F/A's. The management extremism that F/A's have had to face also endangers the CCAA filing. The company is demostrating its refusal to recognize that supporting their F/A's instead of dismissing them is a better course of action. Not only that, but the Teamsters have effectively destroyed their own support by kow-towing to company demands. Few have a notion of how damaging the loss of good leadership has been to the flight attendants. Also, a strong contingent of regional F/A's have been through CCAA before, without result for all of their pains, so they don't believe in the process and mistrust any message, no matter how dire. These are the issues that regional F/A's are facing, and it is understandable that they seek a redress of grievances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nova Zemlya Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 About 45 years ago, they had monkeys going into space. If they can get a monkey to fly a space capsule into orbit so many years ago with arcane technology, then they can get a monkey to fly a 747 from a palm pilot in Timbuktu without so much as batting an eye. Not only that, but if rules were changed to provide for only 1 pilot with technological suppport, companies could save a heck of a lot of money and dispense with at least half the bodies sitting around collecting a paycheque and doing almost nothing. This would reduce the job of a pilot to some kind of technological clerk. Or, if transportation sector rules which protect the exclusive rights of the highest paid workers in the transportation sector to reflect better economic value, then a pilot's training for one type of aircraft would be valid for every airline that flies that type. Technological changes could make a pilot qualified for all types, regardless of size. They could also say that a pilot in Bangladesh is just as qualified as a pilot in Toronto, much like in the computer industry where programming scientists are imported into California and paid chicken feed to do the same highly skilled job of the locals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buskipper Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Give, With such an ignorant statement you're obviously not a rocket scientist either. A large number of F/A's that I have met are certainly quite intelligent and well-educated. This is a attribute that is appreciated by our overseas customers in particular. Why don't you try that delete key a little more often? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 You are all class !!!! NOT !!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sleveen Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 It's a little known fact, but apparently NASA utilized the monkey's well into the space program, duties included feeding the astronauts, and general tidying up, some of them I've been told even smiled. Unfortunatly NASA had to let them go in the end due to requests for outrageous pay and benefits. Now the pilots, I mean astronauts have to get their own drinks and snacks. Seeing as you were making an attempt at humor I thought I'd give it a try. Though no disrespect was intended in my post, keep that in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Oh boy,....How do you REALLY know that everybody voted it down ? Did you hold their hand while they were voting ? And why oh why does everyone want to blame the Teamsters right away. Any union having to deal with all this crap would have done the same thing. Stop the blaming game ! Blame yourself for being put out on the street if anyone else decides follow your imature footsteps ! The Buck stops here though,...I am voting "YES". jzdude remember this,..."the whole world is not out to get you". It couldn't care less ! Peanuts. PS. please anybody else don't take offense to this posting it is addressed only to the likes of jzdude. And jzdude you should change your handle for you sure don't make the rest of us at Jazz look good ! ps. Yes, I am a wee bit bitter ! I simply can't understand some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Message to Teamsters: Hold your nose, grit your teeth and vote Yes. If you have been with a regional for any length of time you are painfully aware of the shortfalls in realizing the benefits of our airline. Now is you opportunity to change all that. All the employee groups at Jazz have, through disussions amongst all the Jazz unions, offered to buy in to a new airline. You need to keep the momentum growing for a new "Cost Effective National Airline" in order to be included in the "New Model". I strongly suspect that if a group such as the teamsters elect to exclude themselves from the recovery of this airline, the courts and the Co. will find some way to maneuver around you. Teamsters!!! Come out and plaaaay! GTFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nova Zemlya Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I think first of all, that regional F/A's have to have enough confidence in managment, that they would respect a fairly negotiated collective agreement. This has not happened as of yet. Not since day 1 of the merge. Second, the Teamsters really set this whole debate alight by committing to binding arbitration three years down the road, not to mention wage parity with Zip. Thirdly, a very large party of people no longer hold any truck with either the company or their union, simply because they have been through CCAA before and look at the cuts and the misreprentations from their union and will vote contrary to everyone else's expectations. This could have been predicted, but the company and the union chose to ignore the importance of their own F/A's and union members while chasing something else. The company some illusory notion that you have no ethical responsiblity to your F/A's, and the union for being hornswoggled by having aircraft dangled in front of them and thinking about their pension funds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Francis: Who has been through a CCAA event before? Certainly none of the old Red Regionals and not CRA so who? This is a different game than has been played at any time of our collective pasts. I would suggest to you that if we did survive a "no" vote (and that's a BIG if) the product of a rejigged deal, given the the economic direction the airline is charting, would quite likely be worse than what you are contemplating now. I certainly sympathize with your anger and frustration but self-imolation not the way to go. IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 First of all, this has not been a negotiation. This has turned into a rescue mission! ALL HANDS ON DECK!!! Secondly the corporate culture of AC is about to change. Big time, or you will either not get the exit financing required or be back in CCAA within 2-3 years. Thirdly, the only debate that the Teamsters can consider at this time is are you going to participate in the restructuring, or not. Fourthly, ZIP is TOAST! Fifthly, there is no doubt that the front line comunnications of Teamsters has been lacking, but the message that has been missed as a result is that you have here an opportunity to support the rebuilding of your airline to a place where there IS a future and where you WILL have some baragaining leverage for future contracts. "This could have been predicted, but the company and the union chose to ignore the importance of their own F/A's and union members while chasing something else. The company some illusory notion that you have no ethical responsiblity to your F/A's, and the union for being hornswoggled by having aircraft dangled in front of them and thinking about their pension funds." Never mind how you got here. First figure out how to survive!!! Think like a winner!!! No more excuses. GTFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nova Zemlya Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I hear you, Kal! I am simply stating the facts as I understand them. If I am wrong about any facts, please clarify. exCRA have actually been through something like this before and feel it will not do any good to give any concessions, certainly not reductions proposed in the TA. (As far as I understand) This is what I have been observing on line and the sentiment is very bearish. I want it said that there is no responsiblity on the part of the flight attendants, since the astoundingly bad tactics of the company in the last couple of years and the childish efforts of the union to come to an agreement may have jeopardized things for all of us. I would say there isn't a single, decent F/A at the regional who wants to tear things up out of spite. If the vote does not pass, it goes immediately into binding arbitration. Even faced with this, there is strong dismay at further layoffs, in the area of 90 called-for, but possibly up to 140 anticipated. If that is the case, then the layoffs could possibly reach over 50% of the workforce. These numbers are totally unreal compared with any other group. What the union is proposing via a letter to selected members in Toronto from the business rep is to accept the deal in lieu of aircraft not written into any agreement. The amount of dismay at this blatant attempt to fob off the worst contract concessions in years while dangling aircraft in front of F/A's in a layoff scenario seems to be just angering the group as a whole. Its like they just don't get it that once we are lied to that this breaks the trust. I am not advocating any position, only trying to say what is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nova Zemlya Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Hey, I get the message. My position is actually one of accepting the agreement because the consequences otherwise are too difficult to contemplate. There is always time afterwards to oust the union or seek new leadership which has been part of the problem all along. But for sure the F/A's are not the center of the problem if the TA does not pass. It has been a policy of management extremism towards the F/A's which has "primed" the whole situation, aimed solely at one group of F/A's the company figures will not stand up for themselves. Sometimes survival means you have to stand up for yourself in the face of very daunting circumstances, and I think this is what the F/A's are faced with. I am not trying to go for a particular position here, only trying to explain what is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Hey, A failure to ratify does not necessarily mean the next step is going to be binding arbitration. This fiasco is becoming known as the game with no rules. Be careful. GTFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nova Zemlya Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Yes, I agree that there are no rules, and the company is being run like a cheap trucking outfit. Assuming that you are a regional pilot, at what point do the regional pilots understand that the company will not respect their agreement either, when around 450 pilot layoffs are called for even though the agreement they have clearly states all regional flying is awarded to ALPA? When do you arrive at the notion that you may have been lied to and that your agreement has enough holes in it to allow the company to get away with the concessions you made to the company? At what point do we say, well why sign any agreement at all when the laws may be upturned at whim, the collective agreements founded on fraud? Sorry to say this, but the possiblity of the regional pilots being left holding their dicks with nothing to show for their efforts is shaping up to be a reality, contrary to expectation and the amazing ballywhoo in the media about cost effective carriers and whatnot. This being hornswoggled by dangling aircraft is beginning to look like a desperate comedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 You may think that the company "dangling aircraft" is a facade but it must also be known that ALPA's dangling of up to 160 Million dollars a year of potential productivity is no joke!!! "Money talks. Bull&%$@! walks" Do ya wanna help fix this old truck or not? GTFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I’m certainly no expert on this CCAA process however, I believe that the Jazz F/A’s may very well have placed themselves on the endangered species list and perhaps, all of Jazz. The F/A’s brought in the Teamsters and went into this process without competent legal and financial guidance. Yes I agree, compared to the AC FA’s, you got screwed however, blame yourselves, blame your union and please feel free to resign if you’re not happy but, someone has failed to make it clear to you…Justice Farley sets the rules and he said “take it or leave it”! It would be my opinion that a failure to ratify will bring great devastation upon your group and perhaps the whole airline. Personally, my best hope is that Farley rams this TA down your throat while offering the disenchanted the option to leave immediately! I can’t imagine why Farley would have set up a process that allowed anyone other than the union executive the right to ratify. Additionally, he’s apparently allowed the releasing of vote results on a base by base basis prior to the completion of the vote in the whole. This is something not allowed in normal democratic processes which prevents other voters from being unduly influenced. IMHO Farley should have sealed the results of all group votes and have released them simultaneously so as to avoid a similar type of undue influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest givemeabreak Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Maybe if they (jazz1 and or jazzdude) would answer my question, "As you sit there and complain, what other job would pay the same, give the same benefits, work the same amount of days, offer a pension, free uniform, etc, etc." with a minimum high school education? No F/A has answered that for me. And my thinking is, they know the truth.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfhunter Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Look in the yellow pages under recruiting and ask us about you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nova Zemlya Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 IMO, the collective agreements obtained in the last few days are fraudulent documents while the intention is to protect ACPA jobs anyways, despite the principle of cost savings, etc. When has the case been any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nova Zemlya Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Yes, we have been screwed. I really like your sense of drama, but my position is pretty clearly stated, that such is the irony of a petty regional manager acting out on their management extremism on lower paid workers that they might have jeopardized the entire CCAA process. How can the regional F/A's be blamed for their POV now? How can we expect that the TA will be respected at all, since it was broken in so many ways last time round? I personally dislike being defrauded, but can you imagine a group largely composed of women feeling that way? It is a matter of personal experience that a purse does not come under safety rules, because it is sacrosant property and so is a woman's wage when it challenges hearth and home. Lotta single moms in pretty prominent positions at the Center For Underpriviledged Regional Flight Attendants! (CURFA) And by the way, the regional pilots have been hornswoggled in much the same way. How can the pilot's union say they represented their members by wrestling an aircraft deal in their favour when they are laying off 450? Sure, they got their media ballywhoo, but their agreement is one huge grey area! As I have said before, this whole thing is taking on the proportions of some kind of strange comedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 "As I have said before, this whole thing is taking on the proportions of some kind of strange comedy" And with all the crying yet to come! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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