Keller Award- The Consequences

[Guest neo]

[Please keep firmly in mind: only unofficial effects of the Keller arbitration on the ACPA seniority list are known at this time; and that the release of the arbitration has been delayed.]

Only a few days ago I never thought that broaching a subject like this would have been necessary, but one must now wonder if the ratification of the ACPA contract will be successful. Only a few days ago, I believed that as difficult as the new contract would be to swallow, sufficient pilots would realize that the consequences of a "NO" vote could be very drastic indeed.

However, the rumored consequences of the Keller award have such a overwhelming negative effect on the original Air Canada contingent that it's now a matter of weighing off catastrophe against catastrophe. That is not a good place to be choosing from, but that is the place we've been put in. So, never being one to shy from broaching the unbroachable, what if the Air Canada pilots did collectively vote against the Tentative Agreement?

Possible outcomes:

1. Justice Farley makes new law and imposes the contract on the AC pilots.

2. The government steps in and imposes the new contract on the AC pilots.

3. The government steps in and tells the CIRB to conduct a Super-Double-Over Arbitration.

4. Air Canada liquidates.

So, to the degree that the first 3 possibilites are likely, there is no jeapardy for the Air Canada pilots to vote no. Furthermore, one of the options provides some hope that the outcome of the seniority arbitration will be mitigated.

The last possibility is the Big Threat hanging over everyone, and it's like the monster in the closet that no one wants to consider. It's the worst case scenario for most of us. So what about it? What would liquidation mean?

Well, for a start it could mean the immediate cessation of our wages and benefits. It could mean that Air Canada will disappear entirely and that nothing will spring directly from those ashes. Your only option is to seek employment at some other existing or yet to exist company.

It could also mean a new Air Canada starting from scratch: but with some portion and element of the former Air Canada employees and equipment, but on terms and conditions that are entirely set by the new employer.

May I be completely candid? There isn't anything about what's happened to Air Canada, to this point, that made me doubt that ACPA's Tentative Agreement would pass. A bitter pill though it is, I felt that the consequences of a NO vote were sufficiently dark to ensure its passage. Now I have very serious doubts. Acceptance of the TA in conjunction with the rumored Keller award will have such disastrous results for the original ACPA pilots that many of them may consider the consequences of turning down the TA to be preferable. In effect what they may think, is that the CAIL pilots rolled the dice until they got the result they wanted and they're getting set to sweep all the chips off the table. Maybe we better roll the dice, too.

Of course, it would be cowardly to sign off after all that without taking a personal stand one way or the other. So here it is: if the Keller award has anything like the effect on the ACPA seniority list such as the unofficial information suggests, then I will vote "NO" to the Tentative Agreement. FURTHERMORE, if Justice Farley insists on delaying the Keller award until after the vote on the TA, I will vote "NO".

Speaking strictly personally, it will be better to face the unknown consequences of turning down the Tentative Agreement, than live with the Keller award as it is thought to exist at this time.

Best wishes to all,

Richard

[Guest Tri-spool]

Yes, neo how quickly the tune changes. It was OK to sacrifice 400 junior pilots in order to retain pension benefits, but when it comes to My Seniority date, How dare they @#$ with that?

Down below someone said to me that you must think about the greater good! Hmmm... I wonder.. who's greater good? This whole thread stinks of hypocrisy!

I'm out a here!

[Seeker]

WHAT?!?! Any thinking, rational, person will vote "YES". The possible consequences to AC liquidating will be much more disasterous than having to live with the, rumored Keller decision.

[CAT3DUAL]

RR, I totally agree with your sentiments. I for one was going to vote yes, until now. I called a friend who is heavily invovled in this process and posed all the required question. He did not answer one of my questions, but the tone of his silence and his lack of denial spoke volumes. To say I was shaken when I got off the phone, would be an understatment.

In my particular position presently, as 340 FO, whose holds a 320 captains position now for 2.5, and still untrained. In the next bid I will lose that capt seat, I will lose my 340 seat because I'm not holding it, and get this potentially slide all the way back to the right seat of the 320. That equals out to about a sixty grand pay loss, not to mention all the rest that goes with it in this new TA. Absolutly, know one could afford that sort of pay loss, it would be the death of a thousand cuts. I've discussed this with my wife and she supports me in my decision. NO! NO! NO!. I will use my sick days to screw up this thing in anyway possible.

Not one CAIL guy took a hit like that. NOT ONE!

[Guest Dick Dastardly]

There is something that you are failing to consider. You are able to hold these positions because of a flawed ruling in the first place.

[Seeker]

"I will use my sick days to screw up this thing in anyway possible"

Yup - that will help your cause, for sure! Aren't you one of those highly disciplined, professional ACPA pilots we keep hearing about? Best in the world, I've heard.

Go ahead - call in sick. Expect a severe judicial response shortly thereafter and then you can come back and deal with this.

[Guest M. McRae]

I guess the question that all need to ask themselves is ........ CAN I SURVIVE A 100% PAYCUT and if so FOR HOW LONG ?????

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.....

[Johnny]

We'll get you the required 'Flight Bag' sticker:

"I Sank Air Canada"

Wear it with pride, right beside the;

"World Class Airline, World Class Contract"

"Do Not Push To Test"

"No C2 ......"

On your next interview you can explain your logic to the board.

[CAT3DUAL]

Held the 340 in the first bid in 99, a full 8 months prior to CAIL. Awarded the 320 on the second bid in 99, 2 months after CAIL. Lost it in the first bid in 2000, and got it back in the second bid of 2000.

You weren't even on the property when I was awarded the 340 and barely around when I was awarded my 320, so please tell me why I'm undeserving of these position. I must of stole them from you as you sat in the 737 right seat in YVR, while you were contemplating puting in a CV with AC back in 98 when things were really going for s#!t at CAIL.

[Guest GDR]

Hello Richard

Here are the 4 possibilities that you mention:

>>>Possible outcomes:

1. Justice Farley makes new law and imposes the contract on the AC pilots.

2. The government steps in and imposes the new contract on the AC pilots.

3. The government steps in and tells the CIRB to conduct a Super-Double-Over Arbitration.

4. Air Canada liquidates.<<<

I agree that 1 and 2 are possibilities. No. 3, I disagree with totally. This is being governed by the courts, and the gov't is not going to interfere with the judicial process. In my view we are now down to 3 possibilities or in reality 2. If we don't pass the TA we will either have the settlement imposed on us or, as I think is more likely, we liquidate.

If the settlement is imposed, then what have we gained? Absolutely nothing. However in the process we have just damaged the company to the point that it will make it that much more unlikely that it will be able to avoid the strong possibility of liquidation even if all contracts are ratified.

There is no upside to voting no. We either put the company into liquidation or make liquidation more likely.

As far as the keller award being delayed it could mean anything. It may just have been delayed so as not to effect the ratification vote, it may have been delayed because Lordon doesn't believe that it follows his guidelines and has told Keller to change it, or it may have been delayed because he hasn't as yet been able to finalize the list. ACPA has a very competent group negotiating on our behalf. Don’t sell them short now.

The situation would be somewhat different if it wasn't for SARS. We lost approximately 25% of our customers over night and as I understand it they haven't come back. We are hanging on by a thread. The creditors are having to decide whether to accept shares in a restructured AC or to take the cash and run. Frankly, if I was a creditor and we turn this down it would make the situation pretty much a no brainer.

I'll be voting yes because I don't see any reasonable alternative.

Greg Robinson

[Guest Go Around]

Let me ask a few questions. If the Air Canada pilots vote no, would the creditors be interested in pouring more money into Air Canada? Would G.E. Capitol be interested in investing? Would anyone be interested in investing in a corporation that just gave a 12-13 billion dollar haircut to investors and is all set to go again with an unhappy labour group who has no contract?

I don't think we'd be talking a one time bailout by government but an ongoing public liability.

I think other solutions would be in the public's best interest.

[Guest sfb]

"ACPA has a very competent group negotiating on our behalf. Don’t sell them short now."

This line is getting a little tiresome!

[John S.]

Possible outcomes:

1. Justice Farley makes new law and imposes the contract on the AC pilots.

2. The government steps in and imposes the new contract on the AC pilots.

3. The government steps in and tells the CIRB to conduct a Super-Double-Over Arbitration.

4. Air Canada liquidates.

Richard, may I add a fifth?

5. Air Canada goes with a new COST EFFECTIVE NATIONAL AIRLINE and scales back international ops until profitable.

As you know the Teamsters, CAW, CALDA and ALPA are all keen to see the COST EFFECTIVE NATIONAL AIRLINE idea move forward. A re-invented Jazz so to speak.

A most interesting kicker is that the highest paid, most powerful, most disgruntled pilot group in the country may actually help make it happen.

A thought: at the Keller hearings there were some ALPA-represented pilots that would probably be keen to re-join the ALPA group at the new COST EFFECTIVE NATIONAL AIRLINE.

This back-in-the-saddle group might just be keen to fly the 76-110 seat aircraft (perhaps the 110-180?) for COST EFFECTIVE NATIONAL AIRLINE wages rather than sitting beside some higher-paid years-younger guy as ACPA and ALPA continue to appeal seniority rulings for the next three years. (And I say three years because that would take it to my six year war prediction, it could go longer.)

Can you just imagine it? As we see the pendulum swing toward new COST EFFECTIVE NATIONAL AIRLINE side there are some of the pilots from the OLD MAINLINE side jumping on.

Seems to me that no matter what ACPA does in the next few weeks and months they can't possibly make enough friends.

In the meantime I'm hoping that the news media and creditors have a look at the idea of a new COST EFFECTIVE NATIONAL AIRLINE.

[sustainable]

Richard et al.

Greg below has stated what he believes to be the more likely of your scenarios. Your postulation that there is nothing to lose however is false. I don't believe that Farley will wade into the CIRB process. I do belive that he will not look favourably upon the prospect of his efforts being scuppered by an unreleated event and may choose to, in th event of an non ratified TA, choose to impose the contract under terms that satisfy Calin's deal with Jazz. Where would we be then.

For what it is worth, I belive that the indignaiton with this whole process stems from the events starting in 1986 when the suggestion to merge the regional and mainline operations was first proposed. AC mainline pilots of the time were dissatisfied with the slow progress and loss of flying to the fledgling regional carreirs. This was exacerbated when there was a push to hire the laid off 243 at the regional carriers and culminated with first the Picher award and the, in my view, somewhat underhanded hiring process that took place while MMe. Pineau made her decision. The senior connector pilots who turned down or postponed the AC offer to join mainline hoping that Pineau would uphold Picher watched daily as younger connector new hires filled in their time on the Dash 8 long enough to get an interview and job at the mainline. The result, a lot of percieved queue jumping and a big batch of pilots who under MM rules, have attained superseniority. Even before the CDN merger there were a lot of percieved injustices within the ACPA list, of course those were perpetuated by the original AC group upon the flow through new hires, in short, there was a lot to be &%$@! about and I belive that a commensurate amount of anger should be directed within ACPA that, unfortunately is being directed at the CP group.

The CP group watche the unfolding debacle between AC mainline and their regionals and attempted to find a workable solution to avoid the mess but preserve the scope. As it was, our scope agreement had one glaring hole in it called the F-28 and management used it with abandon. We also lost progression by accepting productivity enhancements to our contract but there was never a time when I belived that the contract was dysfunctional as I feel the present one is.

The CP group has abided by the process throughout. We have quietly and dilligently worked to find, and to establish with the lawmakers what is a fair and equitable solution. We put our best people on the problem and the rest of us went to work.

What I belive it comes down to now is a matter of principle. If Mitchnik or something like it stuck, I was prepared to resign as there was no hope of progression for my remaining time. I got prepared, put my affairs in order and was (still am) ready to go. If the situation is intollerable and one is principled then I believe that this is the only suitable option for one's own health. I don't see the company liquidating but I do see Farley getting a bit twisted because of one group trying to sink the ship.

My opinion anyway.

Sus.

[John S.]

Hey sustainable,

Keep watching, there may be a fun job for someone with your experience.

Read my post above about a new COST EFFECTIVE NATIONAL AIRLINE.

[Guest Boethius]

Hello Richard, I think you are in anger mode, regardless of your validity. To vote against the TA to fight the Keller award is inappropriate. The correct arena to address the Keller award is the CIRB. To vote against the TA is to vote against the creditors, to do this contravenes your philosophy to live to fight another day as it is the creditors who have all the cards. The measure of a person is not what they do when things go well it is what they do when they do not.

Cheers Boethius

[bluemic]

[Please keep this firmly in mind: only unofficial effects of the approaching comet are known at this time. The actual impact time has not yet been released. Not until I'm safely out of here do you get that info.]

But since I know that none of us have anything better to do with our day today; like no fences to paint, no lawns to mow, no wives to love, no (ahem) grapevines to attend to, I thought I'd broach the unbroachable. Put a little fear and panic into your souls, as it were.

Now it's quite likely that none of you have given this comet a lot of thought but I have to tell you that it could have dramatic effects on our lifestyles. It could put us, if you'll pardon the pun, between a rock and a hard place. Kind of a giant "squish the bug" scenario. For instance, consider the possible outcomes:

a) The pilots could all be killed in the impact. This of course would not negate the recently negotiated agreement.

The pilots might NOT be killed. This would also not necessarily predetermine the negation of the possible, but not definite, ratification of the tentative, yet still unknown agreement which we contemplate the company and association will one day come to an understanding of the wording of which, and submit to the disparate birdmen for our minute perusal and subsequent enfranchement. (Believe it or not, there's a gentleman in Kelowna who can actually understand that statement.)

c) The pilots might not know that there even is a comet. Depending on the comet's path, this could be because they are either a) navel gazing about seniority or too worried about the falling sky to even search for comets. This of course has nothing to do with the agreement.

d) The company could liquidate. This will probably negate the agreement. And the contract. And our paycheques. Then we'd actually be hoping there WAS a comet. To put us out of our misery.

Of course all this is merely pure idle speculation designed to demonstrate to you that the professionals that actually steer the plane are calm, mature and reasoning individuals. Individuals who are entirely focused on getting our customers safely to their destinations. Kind of an exhibition that, while we are indeed keeping our eye on the ball, we are also capable of multi-tasking; that we can actually talk, drink coffee, fly, increase the earth's methane content, AND argue about seniority. All at the same time. Which should show you that you are indeed in good hands with us.

Comet or no comet.

----------------------------------------------------------

Give it a rest neo (and others). Enjoy your surroundings, your family, and your health.

Life's too short to get all spun up over rumours of either comets...or Keller.

mic

[sustainable]

Thanks for the offer John but I should have made myself clearer. I won't be looking for any flying jobs thanks.

[Guest EFIS25]

"You weren't even on the property when I was awarded the 340 and barely around when I was awarded my 320, so please tell me why I'm undeserving of these position. I must of stole them from you as you sat in the 737 right seat in YVR, while you were contemplating puting in a CV with AC back in 98 when things were really going for s#!t at CAIL."

CAT3DUAL - So how was the AC potion they gave you during the 550 course? Do you think you'll ever recover and open the mind a bit?.

Could things have been going for a &%$@! at AC in 98........no they still had 6 hangars and 11 tax payer buildings to sell.

Lets do some quick math and history at the same time ok - .....think back.......Year 2000, an airline odyssey....."Cdn Airlines with a debt of $2billion taken over by stronger Air Canada. ........6 months later, ."tabernac mon ami.......we have $11billion debt at AC." Lets go slowly through this.......eleven apples minus two apples equals what??? C'est vrai........neuf f&^%ing apples of massive AC debt. Not CDN, but AC Debt. They've been lying to you, me, the world the whole time. Ah yes........no wonder the wizards on wall street disputed AC's financials during those years!

[Guest givemeabreak]

That is F*6#$# funny, EFIS!!

CATpeedual your hypocrisy slays me.

[Guest HPT-TOUR]

Now that`s................FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest neo]

That's OK Mike, I've learned to take a shot or two.

I may be getting old, but my memory hasn't faded so much that I don't have vivid recollections of so many of your other posts. You may recall them yourself, they were relentless, dogmatic and sometimes dripping with sarcasm about our seniority issues. I'm fully willing to believe that your 11th hour conversion to the path of "Just Let It Be" is totally sincere and a natural evolution in your demeanor. But it's too late for your change to make a difference at this point.

You don't get to stay in the game but walk away from the consequences that you've had your part in making, Mike. That's not how the game gets played.

Richard

[Guest Peanuts]

So, who really is bluemic ???????????????

[Guest Peanuts]

I personally have been doing lots today, thanx !

If you knew me you'd know that my butt ain't big enough from sitting behind the puter all day !

I do stuff ie. cutting lawns, walking dog, and painting sundecks, while checking the postings.

I am multi talented

So, don't put us ALL in the lazy categorie !

peanuts

[Guest Peanuts]

I personally have been doing lots today, thanx !

If you knew me you'd know that my butt ain't big enough from sitting behind the puter all day !

I do stuff ie. cutting lawns, walking dog, and painting sundecks, while checking the postings.

I am multi talented

So, don't put us ALL in the lazy categorie !

peanuts