dragon Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Airmail, From a thread down the way about AC CUPE, I just saw it now, my apologies. . . . that’s just my opinion, here is mine.. First off, I agree. It makes not a bit of difference today and that’s unfortunate. I used to think that Pam Sachs represented her members well, the senior ones that I fly with seem [ed] to agree. I have been disappointed with her decisions as of late, as I have with Ritchie and Fane. Having said that, I know that many of the ACPA initiatives over the last while are downplayed by the company or dismissed outright, that too is disappointing. I consider myself to be very level. Personally, I don’t trust Milton and I believe I have every reason, and more, to feel this way. The internal climate as you know, is poisonous. Sometimes I wish we could send the whole lot, Milton. Rovinescu, Peterson, Ritchie, Sachs, Fane and Bauer out the door and start new, of course that is not possible. None of that matters today, what matters is tomorrow. The question remains, what to do when nobody trusts each other .. I don’t know. Some want to move forward, many are not prepared. There is resistance from AC, there is resistance from Unions. I think this CCAA filing was inevitable, I think it was a long time coming and I HOPE that mediation/arbitration [cause that’s what it is] will instil come credibility and accountability to a process that grown men and women were not, unfortunately, able to do. As with you, I am ready to get going on a solution. I am wishing us all good luck as well. dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 I personally think the trust issue is unfortunate because trust is usually built up over time and there hasn't been enough time to allow for any trust to be built given the situation Milton has faced ever since he took over as CEO -- starting with Onex, then the AC/CP integration, high-tech meltdown, 9/11, war with Iraq, SARS and the government meddling throughout. Remember, it was only 3 and a half years ago that Milton became CEO and all this took place -- there are enough crises on that list to last several lifetimes but unfortunately for Milton it all took place while he was CEO -- I personally think a lesser man would have quit by now but when you tally things up, Milton's done amazingly well. But back to the trust issue. I think everyone's been under tremendous stress and strain over that period of time -- it just hasn't been a normal time. So what now? I think we need to get over whatever pre-conceived notions we have about each other and push forward in the hopes that we can build a future for everyone. Will it be easy? Absolutely not. It will be painful. But just like at Continental where a lot of pain was felt -- the end result was something everyone who stayed could be proud of. So the choices are now clearer than they have ever been and as the judge has asked, the rhetoric has to be toned down and people have to take a little (maybe a lot) of water in their wine since no one -- I hope -- really wants to see the liquidation of AC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 "but when you tally things up, Milton's done amazingly well" I can't imagine what it is that makes you say that? He presided over the merger of the country's two biggest airlines and botched it badly (putting it mildly!), managed to pi$s off the entire nation with his ridiculous "180 day promise" that didn't fool a single soul, completely squandered an 80% market share, and has now taken us all to the very edge of total failure! Quite a performance eh? Results, I'm told, will tell the worth of a leader. I'm not impressed with the results I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 We've been through this debate before. You can re-read the archives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 I don't need archives to know we're in deep doo-doo and who it was that led us here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 We'll just have to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 I think you need to add Y2K in there as well. Thousands of man hours and tens of millions of dollars were spent on that issue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Thanks George...another one for the list of challenges... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Consiering some unions still don't accept their seniority list mergers and one only recently agreed to allow AC and CP employees to work as one, maybe things aren't as cut and dried as you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Virtual Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Mitch...I still think that it's a little more complicated than that and find it hard to believe that it's just one man responsible or that has to shoulder all the blame. (It's not like AC is the only airline in difficulty ... and he has/had nothing to do with the rest of those.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maranatha Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Mitch, that's a pretty sweeping statement, but in principle you're probably not far off the mark. That ole' buck has to stop somewhere, and the CEO's primary role is to create that atmosphere in a company where the employees WANT to and TAKE PRIDE IN delivering top-notch service, e.g Herb Kelleher, Gordon Bethune, and [dare I mention that name] Clive Beddoe. I've said it to Robert face-to-face, I've said it to Rob Giguere many times, you can't deliver top-flight customer service with disgruntled employees. It's impossible. That begs the question, why are the employees disgruntled? There's alot of industro-psychological baggage out there and any attempt to answer the question would sound trite and be a re-hashing of the privatization/takeover-merger/9-11/things so I'll pass. Talk to some of the ex-CP, EPA, WD, PWA, ND people about their many mergers and you'll find lots of reasons for disgruntlement and disillusionment. Fact is we've simply got to put it behind us and start afresh...if that's possible. Some wise person once said, never park by your failures or disappointments. I think that there's some wisdom in that for all the AC employees. As Kenny Rogers used to sing, "...there'll be time enough for counting when the dealin's done." All the Best, IE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 5, 2003 Author Share Posted May 5, 2003 Iman, nice to see you back, I've missed your sexy voice. You still on the 67? If so, where ya flying to?.. Can't wait to see you and introduce myself as dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 you can't deliver top-flight customer service with disgruntled employees Iain, I agree with your statement, but the question is, who changes a disgruntled employee to a gruntled (is there such a word?) emmployee? Is the employee or is the company? I see far too many people sitting back and waiting to be "valued". Well, self respect comes from within (is that redundant?). If people keep focussing on what's wrong then nothing will get better. If people wait for management to do something, would that make everyone happy? I doubt it. Let's say they give free passes to everyone. Would that make all employees happy? I doubt it. There would be ones complaining about seniority issues etc etc etc. You can't make people happy. They have to chose to be happy. I wish the unions would learn these lessons a bit. They always focus on the negative. Have the unions tried to calm the seniority debates? How about the union hire some professional speakers/counsellors. They could speak to the issues of how to deal with colleagues who are unhappy/angry etc. They could give tips on how to avoid conflict, how to understand the other side's point of view...How much would that cost? A few thousand bucks? How much have the AC/CAI pilots spent on arbitration, how many millions? Its the em-pha-sis that the unions put on the issues that contribute equally to the negative feelings, just like the way management deals poorly with issues. You can be part of the solution or part of the problem. I see a whole lot of people who don't want to be part of the solution. The think that's everyone else's issue. It's a cliche and and oversimplification of the issue but it boils down to maturity (self respect) and maturity (focussing on the positive and working towards a solution). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 5, 2003 Author Share Posted May 5, 2003 Right on brother, more on that tomorrow. Now, I'm off to bed. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Marantha: I agree for sure that we should simply put all the baggage behind us because rehashing past battles does little to build the future. As for the buck stopping somewhere, I agree that it stops with the CEO but while it may stop there, it doesn't absolve the rest of us of our own role in either the successes or failures of our corporations. I think what differentiates us from the low cost carriers is, in fact, the lack of personal accountability among AC and most other "legacy carrier" employees versus those at the low cost carriers. The employees at legacy carriers always point to some other "greater power" when dealing with each other, our customers, our investors or our bosses while those at low cost carriers tend to look at themselves for the solutions (because there always are solutions). How does that change? Maybe the current watershed even we are living will help. Let's hope so. Best of luck to us all. Remember, there are hundreds of management families who will receive the news today that one of their breadwinners has just lost their job -- so in making sweeping statements about who are to blame, don't forget that the anonymous mass of individuals referred disparagingly by some as "management" is made up of individuals who have families, kids and responsibilities as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maranatha Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Couldn't have said it better, Airmail. You've nailed it. All the Best, IE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maranatha Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Hey Dragon, is me de Iman. Nice to hear from you and it'll be even nicer to know who's behind the coolest handle on de forum, apart perhaps from Dagger and Neo. Still on the '67 and flying mostly o'seas. All de Best, IE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 I could be reading you wrong, but I'm thinking I need to tell you I'm not "a disgruntled employee". I think our CEO and his team have made some horrendous gaffes that have hurt us big time, but I still want to deliver - and take pride in delivering - top notch service, to borrow your words. Someone below mentions accountability, yet all I've heard from our top management team is all about how we, the peons, are costing too much. Yep, the axe is swinging today and we'll have to wait and see what sense we can make out of who's been chopped and who's left, but accountability has so far been seriously lacking. Has anyone ever said "whoops, yep I screwed that one up"? I'd have a lot more respect for Milton if he'd just say that. "Geez, ya guys, I really fu*#ed up this merger thing." But if he actually doesn't think so... Then I think he's incredibly stupid and there's no way he should be our CEO. Anyway, I hope the folks who get ousted this week will be able to manage ok... They may be better off leaving now anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maranatha Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Mitch, not for one moment was I suggesting that you were/are disgruntled. If I conveyed that impression with my post, I sincerely apologize. And I agree with you 100% that there needs to be accountability in management. The buck certainly stops in my seat [left-side, pointy-end, B767] and anyone in Mtce who puts his signature on a snag knows all about accountability. But I think that anyone who has wandered around the airport and has heard some of the scuttlebutt being circulated would have to admit that a certain percentage of our employees, both ground and flight, needed a wee bit of an attitude tweak. As one of our more humorous pilots once remarked to me when confronted with a particularly surly employee, "Oh her...she's had the charisma by-pass operation." But neither of us knew what kinds of stress that individual had been exposed to at work, at home, whatever, so maybe the remark was unfair. It was said more in jest than anything else. The bottom line is, however, and I stand by my remarks re CEO's, that it is executive management's prime function to motivate the employees to deliver exceptional customer service. A satisfied employee almost always translates into a satisfied customer. And the sooner that our union leaders realize that the best job-security guarantee is a satisfied customer, and thus a profitable airline, the better off we all will be. I, for one, am prepared to do whatever it takes to ensure that happens. All the Best, IE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Virtual Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Were not a lot of the (employee) merger issues left to the unions? If so, should they not also shoulder some of what was $&^%ed up? In a lot of ways, the only time they weren't arguing with each other was when they got together to unite against management. (Hmm! Sounds remarkably like my kids! ...Now, if I could only solve that problem, I might be able to give some good advice to our CEO!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 5, 2003 Author Share Posted May 5, 2003 Mitch, I was going to offer you a few words of encouragement as well, happy to read you don't need any. Just as I suspected, steady as she goes. Hang in there brother, we need guys like you around here [AC]. xoxo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 5, 2003 Author Share Posted May 5, 2003 Airmail, You make a good case, a one sided case however, and you know that, you also know there are always at least two sides.. . However, we agree it is time to move on. Now if you could only convince RM and CR that you catch more bees with honey.. Honestly, why the delay in full disclosure of financial records to the unions, what's all that about?.. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Dragon: Again -- there are two sides to every story so I would not take Don Johnson's spin on this issue entirely. In the same article, Gary Fane described the presentation as being "transparent" -- amazing how one union considers a presentation and the discussions with management to be transparent and another says that management is stonewalling. Management gave unions a preview of the plan and as far as I heard, it was pretty open kimono with no holds barred in terms of full disclosure. Furthermore, Don Johnson refused to sign a confidentiality agreement -- maybe that could have something to do with not being allowed to see the full picture? Who knows? But if anyone still needs convincing that we are in trouble, then they need to give their heads a shake! To me, the demand for more information is just another stalling tactic or an excuse for inaction. Let's see what the judge thinks about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Ok, he's now jumped a few notches in my esteem. For whatever that's worth. I just had a conversation with the man and among other things, when I told him what I'd just posted (I'd have a lot more respect for him if he'd just admit he f'd up the merger), he said he wouldn't say that, but with the benefit of hindsight he could see a lot that could have gone better. So he's got some politician in him, and necessarily so I suppose, but he's not afraid to take responsibility for what's happened. And he's not stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Thanks dragon. Aye Cap'n, steady as she goes. ;P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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