Scope

[Guest in_the_sky]

Lets say that ACPA Gets what they want in regards to scope.

Milton and his team are seen by the judge as incompetent because they should have worked something out with ACPA before getting agreements based on thier agreement to the scope.

All other unions agreements are based on the RJs, and the new aircraft going to the regionals. These unions would now have and oppertunity to re-negotiate new deals with the company to save 1000's of jobs being lost to Jazz and still save money for the company.

[Guest FL410]

What ACPA wants is EXACTLY what is going to keep the corporation from being competitive IN THE YEARS TO COME.

Milton may be viewed as incompetent for not dealing with this issue years ago prior to getting the corporation in this much of a do/die situation.

With respect to renegotiating the other agreements, exactly just how much time do you think there is for all of that to happen? Each 24 hours that ticks by = $5,000,000.00 that the corporation no longer has and the creditors are on the hook for.

Bottom line is Do what best for the corporation in order to save your mainline job while you still can.

You are either part of the solution or part of the problem. Don't be so small minded to think that a lowcost regional operation is part of the problem.

[Guest in_the_sky]

Yes I forgot It took from April 1st to mid May for the company and the courts to get thier act togethor and start negotiating with the unions. Who was wasting time and burning thru millions of dollars a day?
I forgot it must be ACPA's fault again.
Bobby wants West Jet wages from the pilots. What does a baggage handler, Ticket agent or Reservation agent make at west jet caomared to Air Canadas NEW deal.
I'm uessing that they are still quite a bit more so why should ACPA agree to anything different?

[Guest FL410]

The Crown Corporation of Air Canada is dead. Because of cut-throat competion in the industry, prices for airline tickets are at an all time low. ...So are profits. Any airline left with government style departments/policies/payscales/benefits will probably not stand the test of time.

As for the finger pointing as far as guilt goes, that might make the subject of a somewhat interesting book.

The realities are that if Air Canada has an operation that makes a profit, you will probably be able to see your retirement paycheque without have to go through ANOTHER CCAA AGAIN.

What were once careers in aviation are turning into McJobs. Such was the fate of elevator operators. The corporation MUST change with the times or like the elevator operator, become a part of the past.

If you and your like minded collegues were smart, you would be trying to find ways to adapt to the changing conditions rather than trying to stop the industry clock. Time to come up with some solutions.

Work WITH the new model rather than against it.

...Sorry if the above ideas cause you a headache.

410

[Guest easyjazz]

You are so correct FL410!!
I believe that the Jazz MEC (ALPA) has even given the option of DOH for layed off acpa pilots.
You may look down your noses at our generosity but at the end of the day, a job is a job.
Reality is looming I suggest acpa get with the program or Jazz will be operating the whole d#@ show!

[Guest Fanblade]

The following is from Websters, I would like to draw your attention to definition Number (4).

Scab - a : a contemptible person b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms


I think that the Jazz Pilot group has opened up a can of worms here, and that they may live to regret it. Remember, when people are backed into a corner (ACPA) they can get awfully innovative. The transfer can go both ways.

We are witnessing the wholesale attack on our profession. Lowering the bar hurts everybody in the long run, Jazz included. Facilitating this for whatever reason is dispicable in my book. Jazz pilots should also remember that they could just as easily be replaced by tier 3, or laid off ACPA guys etc.. You are not bullet proof either.

My heart goes out to people of Air Canada, their management has declared war on them and it has to be painful. To sit around and root for the demise of a fellow Canadian is about as low as you can get. It has been my experience in life, that what goes around, ultimately comes around.

Not Fanatical

[Guest YVR_A320]

You say: "I believe that the Jazz MEC (ALPA) has even given the option of DOH for layed off acpa pilots."

This is the first I have read about this. It isn't in any of the documents I have seen. Can to tell us why you believe this to be true? I have a great deal of trouble believing the Jazz MEC would offer DOH for ACPA pilots.

[Seeker]

"4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms"

Who's union, yours or mine?

"It has been my experience in life, that what goes around, ultimately comes around."

Yes, it's gone around and now it's coming back to haunt us. Where did you stand on Picher? Where did you stand on Common Employer?

"To sit around and root for the demise of a fellow Canadian is about as low as you can get."

Isn't this exactly what you are doing when you say we ( Jazz ) may live to regret it? I don't think anyone is rooting for the demise of AC although a few posters here, myself included, have taken the time to point out a bit of the history that brought us to this place.

seeker

[Guest Kal]

"Not Fanatical"

No just a raving looooonatic ;0 Yikes.

[Guest Airway]

I doubt ALPA or Jazz would agree to DOH for the furloughed ACPA pilots. If Milton furloughs enough pilots, it would be the same as merging the lists DOH at Jazz, but gives no access to the Jazz pilots at the mainline.

I could see bottom of the list after recalls, and if there is a open positon, with reciprical rights for the Jazz pilots.

[Guest FL410]

Good day Fanblade.

Insinuating that Jazz pilots are scabs is quite a stretch indeed.

Are you that narrow-minded to think that when a bargaining unit is allowed to exist (talk to some ACPA reps about that), that bargaining wouldn't happen? Did you honestly think that a scoped bargaining unit would not try and maximize their members careers? Please tell me that it was an error in judgment for I would like to think of you as having some judgement as an aviator. In case you don’t have any sensitivities, trying to help out the corporation in trying to turn around their profitability is an insult.

Was it not the Air Canada pilots that COULD have fixed the matter of competing bargaining units years ago? Did they not coin the merger process "negotiate, mediate, arbitrate"? They thought THAT process was flawed and came up with their new process: "We are first, You are last" process and saw that it was good. ... sorry if you can't see the humor in that but I grow weary of the arrogance.


"I think that the Jazz Pilot group has opened up a can of worms here, and that they may live to regret it. Remember, when people are backed into a corner (ACPA) they can get awfully innovative. The transfer can go both ways."

I am curious, is that a threat? Perhaps you should work for the post office. Why don’t you try something TRULY innovative like MERGING lists and becoming colleagues interested in each other’s wellbeing and welfare? (Now THAT might be too much of a stretch for you). Or would that mean that you may have to share some of the pie? Oh well…

"We are witnessing the wholesale attack on our profession."

Close!... We are witnessing a wholesale attack on the arrogance of ACPA to hold hostage the lives and careers of 40,000 people. If you were a true profession, you would realize that your value is only what the market can bear. Changing times. If you cannot see the value of a successful employer than we are all doomed.

....don't like the idea of bargaining unit competition, see the ACPA folks about solutions. You may like what they have to suggest. …Do not allow others to have value for you may have to share. Do NOT recognize them in the hallways, they may get tired of trying to say hello and just go away. Embarrassing to say the least.

“ Lowering the bar hurts everybody in the long run, Jazz included. Facilitating this for whatever reason is despicable in my book.”

ACPA is the party lowering the bar by not embracing all their work when they had the chance (merging lists). They are your facilitators. For without their actions, the Jazz pilots as a separate group would not exist. A SMART pilot group would have seen this coming a LONG time ago. Think of it as fuel planning.

"Jazz pilots should also remember that they could just as easily be replaced by tier 3, or laid off ACPA guys etc.. You are not bullet proof either. "

I don't think that any group is claiming to be bullet proof here, other than ACPA.

"My heart goes out to people of Air Canada, their management has declared war on them and it has to be painful."

Pretty hard to believe that you have anyone elses intersts at heart other than your own.

Air Canada management, although not perfect has NOT declared war on the employees. They are simply doing what should have been done years ago. ...Becoming competitive to be able to REMAIN in the marketplace. They are trying to make sure that their employees actually receive a retirement cheque. However, I could be wrong. They may think that all of the employees as evil and are there solely to try and deceive the employer out of a profit. They may think that employees are to be despised and treated as potential thieves… not likely. Kind of makes one wonder about your point of view.

For selfish people, they only see mirrors… of how life’s events affect only themselves and can’t see beyond the mirrors to see how events affect others. They have no compassion or heart. Some would venture they have no soul. For those that do see that there are others that exist in this world, Air Canada’s plan is as plain as the nose on your face.

"To sit around and root for the demise of a fellow Canadian is about as low as you can get. It has been my experience in life, that what goes around, ultimately comes around."

You may be a victim of your “life experiences”…

[Guest FL410]

Good day Fanblade.

Insinuating that Jazz pilots are scabs is quite a stretch indeed.

Are you that narrow-minded to think that when a bargaining unit is allowed to exist (talk to some ACPA reps about that), that bargaining wouldn't happen? Did you honestly think that a scoped bargaining unit would not try and maximize their members careers? Please tell me that it was an error in judgment for I would like to think of you as having some judgement as an aviator. In case you don’t have any sensitivities, trying to help out the corporation in trying to turn around their profitability is an insult.

Was it not the Air Canada pilots that COULD have fixed the matter of competing bargaining units years ago? Did they not coin the merger process "negotiate, mediate, arbitrate"? They thought THAT process was flawed and came up with their new process: "We are first, You are last" process and saw that it was good. ... sorry if you can't see the humor in that but I grow weary of the arrogance.


"I think that the Jazz Pilot group has opened up a can of worms here, and that they may live to regret it. Remember, when people are backed into a corner (ACPA) they can get awfully innovative. The transfer can go both ways."

I am curious, is that a threat? Perhaps you should work for the post office. Why don’t you try something TRULY innovative like MERGING lists and becoming colleagues interested in each other’s wellbeing and welfare? (Now THAT might be too much of a stretch for you). Or would that mean that you may have to share some of the pie? Oh well…

"We are witnessing the wholesale attack on our profession."

Close!... We are witnessing a wholesale attack on the arrogance of ACPA to hold hostage the lives and careers of 40,000 people. If you were a true profession, you would realize that your value is only what the market can bear. Changing times. If you cannot see the value of a successful employer than we are all doomed.

....don't like the idea of bargaining unit competition, see the ACPA folks about solutions. You may like what they have to suggest. …Do not allow others to have value for you may have to share. Do NOT recognize them in the hallways, they may get tired of trying to say hello and just go away. Embarrassing to say the least.

“ Lowering the bar hurts everybody in the long run, Jazz included. Facilitating this for whatever reason is despicable in my book.”

ACPA is the party lowering the bar by not embracing all their work when they had the chance (merging lists). They are your facilitators. For without their actions, the Jazz pilots as a separate group would not exist. A SMART pilot group would have seen this coming a LONG time ago. Think of it as fuel planning.

"Jazz pilots should also remember that they could just as easily be replaced by tier 3, or laid off ACPA guys etc.. You are not bullet proof either. "

I don't think that any group is claiming to be bullet proof here, other than ACPA.

"My heart goes out to people of Air Canada, their management has declared war on them and it has to be painful."

Pretty hard to believe that you have anyone elses intersts at heart other than your own.

Air Canada management, although not perfect has NOT declared war on the employees. They are simply doing what should have been done years ago. ...Becoming competitive to be able to REMAIN in the marketplace. They are trying to make sure that their employees actually receive a retirement cheque. However, I could be wrong. They may think that all of the employees as evil and are there solely to try and deceive the employer out of a profit. They may think that employees are to be despised and treated as potential thieves… not likely. Kind of makes one wonder about your point of view.

For selfish people, they only see mirrors… of how life’s events affect only themselves and can’t see beyond the mirrors to see how events affect others. They have no compassion or heart. Some would venture they have no soul. For those that do see that there are others that exist in this world, Air Canada’s plan is as plain as the nose on your face.

"To sit around and root for the demise of a fellow Canadian is about as low as you can get. It has been my experience in life, that what goes around, ultimately comes around."

You may be a victim of your “life experiences”…

[Guest Fanblade]

"4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms"

Fact: ALPA has negotiated to transfer flying from the mainline to the regional at a lower payscale. This satisfies the above definition, whether you like it or not. The Jazz Pilot group has used the current CCAA process to attempt to undermine a fellow unions position. The previous history is immaterial, you will be next on the chopping block, as you have opened the proverbial pandora's box.

I never said who my employer is, you assume to much. The reality is that your actions are now affecting the entire industry. Furthermore, I doubt that ACPA will roll over and die, facing 800 layoffs, they may do to you what you have done to them.

again not Fanatical

[Guest Fanblade]

FL410, for the record, I think that we (pilots in general) are in a spiral down. Our profession is well.. no longer a profession. Your bargaining unit took the first big step, I suspect that ACPA will take the next.

Market realities like the current downturn are relatively short lived compared to a career. Unions improve the standard of living for their members, competing unions do not. Dwelling on the history of ALPA, CALPA, ACPA is pointless.

I suggest for the good of the Profession that both unions come to some sort of arrangement. Think in the future not the past. By the way, I never said where I worked, you assume too much.

FYI - the transfer of work from the mainline to the regional is technically not legal. It can be negotiated only if ACPA chooses to play ball. If ACPA forces the equivalent of a court imposed solution, the Jazz agreement will not survive an appeal. The CCAA Judge cannot waive labour or Pension law indefinitly, he can only place them in abeyance subject to negotiations. Post CCAA processes may render your agreement worthless.

So what will have been achieved you ask? Well all the Pilots of the Air Canada group will now be permanently working for much lower wages and working conditions. This intern will put a lot of pressure on the rest of us, and you and your union will have lead the way. What happened to all the moral correctness from a few years ago?

not spooled

[Guest easyjazz]

Once again FL410 you hit the nail on the head.

My previous post was not to put anyone down more a statement of fact.

"what comes around does indeed come around" fanblade

Just hurts when your the recipient for a change!

[Guest easyjazz]

acpa does not dictate a bloody thing.
Your arrogance will see to it that liqudation will be your ultimate undoing.
cest la vie

bon chance

[Guest easyjazz]

"The reality is that your actions are now affecting the entire industry"

B***sh*t. The only thing affecting the entire industry is acpa and it's merry band of concieted monkeys.

Iwant Iwant Iwant

Threats from the choosen ones...

Tick tock 9 hours 25 min to get it together people.

[DEFCON]

“FL410, for the record, I think that we (pilots in general) are in a spiral down. Our profession is well.. no longer a profession.”

Yes, it’s almost over for the lot of us. The failure of CALPA and the creation of ACPA opened the gates of hell, released the dogs of war and here we are!

“Your bargaining unit took the first big step, I suspect that ACPA will take the next.”


ACPA itself represents that “first big step” and will almost certainly continue the process leading us all to the welfare lines.

”Market realities like the current downturn are relatively short lived compared to a career. Unions improve the standard of living for their members, competing unions do not.”

Agreed!

“Dwelling on the history of ALPA, CALPA, ACPA is pointless.”

If one just dwells it would be pointless however, if ones dwelling leads one to understand the causal factors that have brought us all into the present situation (learning from history) perhaps a net benefit for all will have been achieved.

”I suggest for the good of the Profession that both unions come to some sort of arrangement.”

Wouldn’t that be perfect!

”FYI - the transfer of work from the mainline to the regional is technically not legal. It can be negotiated only if ACPA chooses to play ball. If ACPA forces the equivalent of a court imposed solution, the Jazz agreement will not survive an appeal. The CCAA Judge cannot waive labour or Pension law indefinitly, he can only place them in abeyance subject to negotiations. Post CCAA processes may render your agreement worthless.”

Technically I believe you’re correct however, should ACPA take AC into the sewer, Jazz will be able to expand serving whatever route it chooses.

”So what will have been achieved you ask? Well all the Pilots of the Air Canada group will now be permanently working for much lower wages and working conditions. This intern will put a lot of pressure on the rest of us, and you and your union will have lead the way. What happened to all the moral correctness from a few years ago?”

The “moral correctness” you refer to was lost with the creation of ACPA. I would point out the fact that the new Jazz is a compilation of the four previous red tail regionals & CRA. This melding was completed with little fuss and all on a DOH basis. Now, without getting into all the rational and irrational debate issues surrounding the merits of the CDN acquisition suffice it to say, ACPA has never been willing to play with others in a fair and equitable manner. Because of the actions of the AC pilot group AC, all its employees, and stakeholders now find themselves in very precarious circumstances.

[Guest Terminated]

Whoever you would want us to believe you work for, go ahead. The forum is anonymous, and none of us have any way of verifying it.

It is absolutely clear, however, that you have a substantial bias, and a wonderfully incomplete view of this situation. There is no question that this whole situation is unfortunate, but to try to make these baseless personal attacks just shows the limited level of comprehension you have of this.

As ACPA has done, ALPA has tried to use the tools and leverage available to it to make its members professional lives better. I understand why ACPA does not like this; in fact I'm sure all members of Jazz understand it so well, because we have been on the other side so many times. It gives us a terribly unique view of this potential opportunity this gives us, and yet the disgust at the way it must come about.

I will not paint particulars for you on why the rules of the game were set up by ACPA, and how they have played those rules to their advantage over and over again. If you have any real knowledge of the actions of both sides leading up to this, you will either be able to understand, or you are so blinded by your biases then it doesn't matter.

I can even say that I understand ACPA's actions, even if I don't agree with them. And I'm sure the reasonable members of the mainline pilots, as concerned as they are, can understand why we have taken the actions we have. Sad thought this is, it is not peronal to the vast majority.

[Guest Kal]

I guess you don't work for AC because if you did you would know who came first in the chicken vs. the egg game you are suggesting.

It wasn't the Regionals.

Having said that you, like our ACPA friends are missing the point. The airline is insolvent. It is broke and it is going down unless people recognise that a drastic change is nessesary.

This airline system has to emerge with a business model and agreements in place that will provide enough comfort to the creditors to suck up what they are going to be asked to suck up. period. They (the creditors) couldn't give a rats hairy a$$ what the ACPA think they are worth or entitled to or what they think their birthright is. It is irrelevant.

What ACPA is doing is proposing a continuation of a model that is broken. It can't work it won't work. All componenets of the rebirth must have the opportunitee to produce the maximum value for the creditors. Otherwise it just won't wash.

Perhaps they have the legal right to challenge everything that happens to them... It will be moot because the airline won't exsist. The people with the vested interest will walk away. Some have speculated that the bond holders best bet on a return will be liquidation. The job of all the parties is to keep the wolves at bay by presenting an idea that is more attractive than death.

Legal challenges, screaming at judges and outrageous brinkmanship is not creating an image that will stave off the grim reaper.

Maybe it's all over anyway. If the regional airline flying regional equipement is too much of an outrageous idea for the people to accept then it is over.

[Guest Eventer]

And how did ACPA get the Regionals Jets in the first place. You, (They) fit your own definition quite nicely by offering to fly the CRJ for less than the Regional groups had agreed to! Who's the Scab!!?

[Guest FHI]

Keep thinking with that mentality Gurk and you will not have anything anywhere. It is pilots like you who give the entire industry a bad name. What makes you think that you are better than anyone else? Look at the situation that we are all in and really try to understand what you just wrote.

[Wolfhunter]

"Keep the wolves at bay"... can I help? :=)