Guest qtip Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 You're right!!! But I think Labtec's seniority # may not help him very much after the CCAA process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Doc Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Also, with the requirment to service smaller communities now gone, AC can farm out deals to dozens of T3 feeders using commercial agreements that allow feed but share risk with the contracted operator. Or, for that matter, code share and leave ALL the risk with the T3 operator. Anyone who thinks that a reorg will result simply in wage reductions has his head in the sand. There will be BIG changes in the way AC operates mainline and regional flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 The American pilots can't work in Canada. That's an immigration issue. There will be 3500 Canadian big jet pilots typed and ready to go. If the dust settles and a new carrier emerges they will undoubtedly hire people current and typed on the equipment they operate. This will likely be Airbus products as there will be a huge number of them parked on one of the parallel runways in YYZ a'la C3. The hope that some have at JAZZ is that because of their "low wages" they will be able to swoop in and scoop up these jet jobs. Not likely, unless the new carrier is going to operate a transcon or overseas Dash8 operation. The fact is, and I have said it ad nauseum that JAZZ is not lo-cost for the type it operates. It is high cost. If I had to bet the work these high paid prop-pilots make will likely be farmed out to tier3 private contractors and they will be squeezed some more. Its already happening on the Rock. This is a stupid purely speculative discussion and that was my point at the outset. We don't know how its going to go. But if you apply a little economic logic the connector group are not in a very good position although it is clear that we are not situated much better. There is however, one certainty: the lawyers will get paid. Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pull Up Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Excellent point. If scope goes at mainline the boys and girls at Jazz stand to loose theirs just as easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest qtip Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Labtec, You rant on like you are manic and still haven't mentioned your relative seniority nor do you argue my 3 to 5 year estimate in your seniority.I'm thinking now that you are concerned about you're future as we all are and the sooner we all get together the better for all of us.Talk to you after the CCAA process is done and we'll see if that attitude of yours has had the adjustment it deserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest low torque Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 I think you have forgotten or don't know that the Jazz agreement allows for the same cost for ANY type. That is what provides for the flexibility that the company and the creditors will be looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exGXer Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Roadie Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 What are you smoking ? Listen to what you are saying , pay is not an issue? Give me a break , not only is the Jazz pay scale lower there is no descrimination between the various types which equates to a huge savings in training costs and bettere pilot utilization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 JAZZ is a high cost airline if the type they are flying is a dash8. We had this debate a month ago. The U.S. regional carriers work for substantially less on the same equipment than their canadian cousins on the Dash8 or the CL65. JAZZ is a lo-cost operator if they fly the 747-400 for sure, but flying the dash8 they have industry leading wages and working conditions. I don't smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C185 Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 Mike, You are right . There should have been one list a long time ago. Your previous comments that a Viscount and a Dash both carry 50 pax is well taken. One list and we would have some clout. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 WE can fight or we can win. We cannot do both. Play ALPA off against ACPA and the sound you hear will be Calin laughing. The question is, can both sides stop the pi$$ing contest and hammer out a deal? You tell me. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 One list, all mainline. Left seat jet at Jazz is guaranteed left seat RJ mainline - direct entry. Right seat RJ the same deal. Dash-8 fleet transferred as is. Downbids from mainline are not allowed to bid to equipment junior to RJ. In effect, down bidding fence around the Dash-8. Mainline pilots who cannot hold the RJ are laid off, but recalled to a jet position. Fence for 1 year. I am sure I haven't thought this all through, so help me out. Keep the flames set on low, I'm looking for a solution that keeps everyone on the same team. Thoughts? Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 "Logically, we outnumber you so why would they upset 3500 pilots versus 1300?" As a large force you present the biggest labour threat to a company and its ability to ward off the consequences of labour action. From a business perspective, smaller is better! The new AC will be a widebody long haul carrier. Jazz will operate a large all pencil jet fleet. T-3 will get some dashes and Zip will operate a thirty plane 319, 20 & 21 fleet. In total the above corp will employ a pilot force of approximately 4000. End of story and welcome to AC's new world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACsidestick Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 Vs: You would like upward access to AC pilot list and therefore also eventual access to their AC, but do not want AC Pilot's to have downward access to your list or AC - is that correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 "If economics has anything to do with it I would much rather be an AC guy than a connector pilot right about now." That's very nice but, I wouldn't. Sure the top 1500 at AC are likely to come out of this mess with some kind of a job but, below that number you're an endangered species. Please keep in mind that Jazz is a separate entity from AC and Jazz's 90M loss could be easily fixed with new management and the freedom to be a real company without the anchor (AC) around its neck. Hell, AC can't even manage its ramp operations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 Labtec Get your values straight please. When this was last debated a United Express pilot posted his pay scale and it was quite clear, they earn more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fasteddy Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 It sounds simple,maybe a simple solution would work...Cheers Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiho Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 You said... "Sure the top 1500 at AC are likely to come out of this mess with some kind of a job but, below that number you're an endangered species." 5 minutes prior to this, you posted... "The new AC will be a widebody long haul carrier. Jazz will operate a large all pencil jet fleet. T-3 will get some dashes and Zip will operate a thirty plane 319, 20 & 21 fleet. In total the above corp will employ a pilot force of approximately 4000. End of story and welcome to AC's new world!" So, using your reasoning and math, after the restructuring, AC international mainline and Zip will have a combined pilot force of 1500. Jazz and T3 will number 2500 pilots. That should give Jazz a fleet of what, say 200 RJ's. What the heck was I thinking, you lads will be a hell of a lot more productive and you'll work for less, let's put you down for 250 eh Defcon 'ol boy. I think your last sentence should have read "Welcome to my world. Do you like the colour of my trees?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 I'm not trying to mess anyone up. This is a merger condition for a year. After that, open bid, to minimize collateral damage from the restructuring. If you want to live in Halifax and bid the Dash-8 from the 767, then you might have to wait a while. I'm also trying to consider a firewall here. There are benefits both ways. The mainline avoids serious damage from all the RJ's, 50 and 90, going regional, and the regionals avoid having to absorb every single mainline layoff on their backs. But, everyone has to flex a bit. Like I said, I don't presume to have all the angles figured out, but hey, if we don't start talking, we will all start bleeding. Just my opinion Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.70 mach Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 You know what, great ideas can come out of this if fair minds are used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 Let's just hope your approach is contagious. Cheers Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Aubin Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 Now I don't mean to fan any flames . . . I am just looking for a little clarity on what is meant within the above proposal. You would obviously have to establish an actual seniority list out of your idea. It SOUNDS like you are proposing an endtail list with caveats (ie. grandfather rights to connector RJ pilots) and some fences. Is this correct?? Philip Aubin AC Pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.70 mach Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 Philip, If it's not out of line to ask, give an opinion what you feel is fair from your side of things. Vsplat made some suggestions some might be bad, some might be good. You never know, for our discussion lets use it as a starting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACsidestick Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 Vs, the tone of your postings sound like you are making a sincere proposal. That is appreciated. You have even attracted the attention of P. Aubin. For those who are not aware, Phil is the author of the ACPA scope and a very bright man. If people are trying to make proposals, he is doing the filtering. I don't see, however, how your proposal is of any benefit to ACPA. You are making an assumption that CCAA will open up scope and that the 55 and 90's are going to Jazz, and that somehow ALPA has gained some negotiating momentum. This is unlikely, and completely without presidence. Never in the history of CCAA have employee contracts been opened by a judge (only non-contract benefits changed). That is not to say that ACPA will not negotiate points to protect our careers. If scope stands, Jazz is allowed a maximum of 39 SJ(55 certified seats of less) and no larger. Air Canada's 25 RJ's must be included as part of your 39. Quote "All 25 CL-65 aircraft will be transferred to ACR (jazz) before adding SJ (small jet 55 seat certified or less) to ACR (jazz)in excess of 39". Jazz is parking 146's (this doesn't change any numbers as they were on a seperate exemption), Jazz currently has 10 RJ's. You are allowed only 4 more 55 seaters before taking over Air Canada's 25. However, and this is a big however, for each RJ transferred, it must be replaced with 1 narrow body jet (90-220 seats certified) or 1 widebody jet (221 or more). If you are in the junior group majority (hired in the last 8 years) and would like to finally be on the ACPA seniority list, take some control and exercise your right to a great career, unfettered by those who have held all of you back. Propose BOTL, no fences. Also included would have to be an individually signed condition of joining such as 1. At no point will application be made to ever pursue date of hire - The list stands. Believe me, no one at Air Canada will ever let their number be thrown back in the hat again. 2. That this was signed out of desire to improve career conditions, and was not signed under duress. If this was the desire of ALPA-C, you might get Phil's attention again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 6, 2003 Share Posted April 6, 2003 An endtail list with fences might work once the biggest equipment at Jazz equals the smallest equipment at mainline. That said, I am trying to start a discussion that might lead to something better, not start a food fight. One thing that is key is to keep position during the transfer. If Jazz brings 10 RJ's and their crews in position, then even if they are end-tailed, their relative seniority is protected, same as for the Dash. I think for the RJ we might be talking close to 30 crews, and if there are any based at a non-AC base, then things would continue for these folks with pretty close to normal ops, except that the next hiring boom (and there will be one....) has these folks already on the list and there is no dilution to feeder opportunities. What works better? Maybe we can start to build up from here. Just my opinion Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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