Guest bigbirg Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 So much talk of scope clauses below. Are they still valid under C.C.A.A.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skirt Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 You bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Also on the table is the very existence of the connector airline. You may find it ends up being shutdown as part of the restructuring and you are out of work. The Trustee may simply say its more efficient to keep the CL65's right where they are(we have 25 and a simulator vs. your 10 and no sim) and shut down the dash8 operation. I think the acrimony of the two groups will be an influencing factor on any restructuring. Logically, we outnumber you so why would they upset 3500 pilots versus 1300? If the dash8's are required we may find that the dash8's are brought over to the mainline and the regional model buried for good? Who knows? Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest red rock Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 a mainline dh-8....thats funny....wait a second thats the line for a mainline crj. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Sowsun Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 A Dash-8 has 4000 shp and carries 50 pax. A Viscount has 4000 shp and carries 50 pax. It wasn't all that long ago that Air Canada mainline pilots were flying turboprops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob Assaf Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 HA HA HA HA HA HA that's hilarious you crack me up! See crossair/swissair if you want a snapshot of what might happen if you take that attitude into talks with the creditors. Note I didn't say negotiations, 'cause you will be listening and they will be talking. Also, just to remind me and the creditors out there, just how much DID the price to fly those 25 RJ's jump the next contract after you got them initially? It seems to me the price jumped pretty substantially after you agreed to fly them for cheap if you got them. Do you think they are stupid enough to fall for that twice? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob Assaf Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 yeah mike, I was 5 years old, milk came in glass bottles delivered everyday too, what's your point? What was the annual salary back then, going to work for those wages too? You guys better have a better game plan than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 I have to admit I've turned into a war junky. I try not to watch CNN all the time, but I do more than I should. In the interem I read the drivel here. The point is I had the same impression or feeling after reading your post as I had when I watched the Iraqi press guy saying the yanks are not even in the country. Please respect I don't equate him to you, just the lack of situational awareness... There is a new paradigm we all have to accept now. Hopefully (and I am hopeful ) it will mark the threshold of a better place for us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Labtec wrote "If the dash8's are required we may find that the dash8's are brought over to the mainline and the regional model buried for good?" Be careful what you ask for..... Seat Belt Sign ..."ON" Slim Slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest qtip Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Labtec, You weren't by chance in that 747 quite a few years ago that came in from I think it was Dehli and found a couple of smokes that weren't allowed were ya?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAT3DUAL Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Now folks this is the kind of post you ignor. Doesn't add anything to the flow of information and it's only purpose is to inflame and cause grief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest qtip Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Look at Robbie go!!!!!!!!!! I agree with you Rob,but Labtec hasn't been around long enough to hold the super cub on cap 2000's out of Red Lake and he's trying everything he can to look after me,me,me,me,me.Some things just never change.Sorry Labtec but you gave it away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 I agree, but when some pokes you in the eye it's hard not to respond. This guy sounds like a little kid whistling in the dark. It's obvious that he's scared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 What do you mean "we have 25 and you have 10"? This is more correctly stated as " Air Canada Enterprises have two subsidaries, one with 25 RJ's and one with 10 RJ's". Interesting point about which group of pilots would be easier to work with after a restructuring. Is it the group that has always worked for regional wages or the group that has seen their wages cut in half? Which group is more likely to try to win back the higher pay as soon as possible? Which group would be more resentful of the situation? "Who knows?" Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 I agree, but when someone pokes you in the eye it's hard not to respond. This guy sounds like a little kid whistling in the dark. It's obvious that he's scared, as we all are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest qtip Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Don't feel bad CAT3Dual.Labtec is out of control and nedds a little attitude adj. If we as pilots want to be part of the solution"and I'm sure we all do" we have to work together or it won't matter what your sen.# is or what silo you are from.AC,Jazz, Zip,Tango,Rhumba,it's all the same company.Just wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Toron1 Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 ...and here we go again, 'round and 'round it goes, where it stops nobody knows. bohica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz2 Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 just a bit of education for you,Jazz has their own CRJ sim as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 It is pathetic isn't it, grown men acting like anything but grown men.. Should have, still should, still could - with a little common sense, amalgamate our groups for the betterment of us all. All it would take is a little compromise, a little common sense and a will.. Can the creditors, as part of CCAA, force the issue in any way? Anyone know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 I think that at the end of the day you will still require 3000+ pilots to do the flying and wages are not going to inflame the situation as much as putting the "junior" AC pilots in the left seat ahead of the "senior" connector pilots. The senior connector pilots still have a 300 million dollar lawsuit that they have been funding against the ACPA group. Why would any creditor want to get into bed with you guys? Simply, because you earn less? If they cut our pay we'll earn less to and we haven't been nearly as militant and aggressive as the connector group. I think that at the end of the day I don't know what is going to happen and neither do you. The point of my previous post, that seems to have raised some ire, is just that. You guys can hope that scope is eliminated and maybe it will be. However, just as likely is that they dispense with an operation that lost 90 million last year and you are all out on the street. Hell, if it goes bad they may just liquidate the whole damn thing and we are all on the street. The difficulty for you folks is that there will be 3500 pilots with current type ratings on various large jet aircraft and they will be picked up to do the large jet work and you will likely be picked up to do the prop work. Why would the new company spend all kinds of money training a bunch of -8 drivers how to fly the 767 when we have guys that are already trained for that position. If economics has anything to do with it I would much rather be an AC guy than a connector pilot right about now. Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Labtec: This posting seems to have a slightly less antagonistic tone than the last and so I shall try to follow that sentiment as well. I am not part of the lawsuit but from what I have heard there are some interesting legal points being discussed but not much chance that the plaintifs will prevail. Just my opinion but I don’t think this will be a factor in the restructuring. Although you may see the connector group as militant and aggressive I suspect that an outside observer wouldn’t. You seem to imply that just agreeing to work for the same rate as a connector guy should be enough to convince management but there is more to it isn’t there? ACPA may agree to a huge reduction in pay to get the work but what happens when your contract is up for renewal? It pretty clear that there will be significant pressure to get back to where you were before. Do you think that this won’t play a part in the decision? Don’t fall for the stories in the press about Jazz “losing” 90 mil. ( Do we have to go through all that again? ) Even if this were true, so what. 90 mil out of 1.3 billion. Sounds like we did pretty well! In any case none of the business people involved will fall for that story. You seem quite smug in your belief that you’re better off, I think we’re better off. Time will tell. ACPA’s been saying for years that we’re a different company - if AC disappears - ACPA disappears. Maybe being a different company isn’t such a bad thing after all. You are right that neither you nor I know what will happen and for every reason you give that ACPA should come out on top I can give you one why the opposite is true or more likely to happen. PS. I don’t want your 767 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Sowsun Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 I guess my point is that the whole scope issue is quite ridiculous. It is especially so when both groups are part of the same company. I think CALPA made a huge mistake when they first allowed independent "feeder" airlines to do the same flying that the "majors" were doing. My first airline flight was on a TCA DC-3 from Winnipeg to Yorkton with a quick stop in Brandon. At the time TCA was flying DC-8's internationally as well. When the "majors" bought up the "feeders", it should have ended right then and there with one seniority list. I guess greed and egos on both sides got in the way. Mike Sowsun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest qtip Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Labtec, I don't think you really understand the #'s thing.3500 guys with large aircraft endorsements looking for work?Have you read the news?.If you add UAL,American,US Air and all the rest of the carriers who have and are going to have pilots looking for work into your numbers that's alot more than 3500.Now you may have a problem.That prop job all of a sudden looks ok doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest low torque Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 The only thing you (Labtec) have going for you right now is your seniority number. You'd just better hope that it is worth something 6 months from now because if not, with your attitude, you'll be lucky to be driving a Navajo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Doc Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 If scope disappears then so does your protective scope against Tier 3. It is anyone's guess, but you may well see Jazz reduced considerably and AC given a free hand to contract work out from the RJ on down to a Navajo to ANYONE they feel like dealing with. Mainline will downsize and, imo, Jazz will downsize to a larger degree as AC doles out is regional flying to the guy with the best deal. This becomes more true since the feds are out of the picture (their offer spat back) and AC concerned more with mainline ops. Jazz, at the moment, is a secondary thought, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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