Kip Powick Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Just in....The OCP Merger committee has been advised that they have won the Judicial Review against Keller that was heard by Mdm Dawson last November in the Federal Trial division.....with costs. Now......finally......the AC pilots can get on with the job and after 5 years of "this and that", pull together as one cohesive unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropzone Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Just in....The OCP Merger committee has been advised that they have won the Judicial Review against Keller that was heard by Mdm Dawson last November in the Federal Trial division.....with costs. Beating the krap out of each other. We should all be proud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 No one on the OAC side can understand how 8:1 for the bottom 1/3 of the list is fair. And since that group will be around the longest I can not see the animosity going away for a long time. In the near term it will only get worse as we we come to terms with the fact that the Keller award really isn't going to change. Having a little trouble following you...I have the 2004 seniority list as per Keller and from 2000 on, starting at the bottom, it shows 8 OAC and then 1 OCP with the OCP loosing, on average 2 years of seniority, using DOH as a baseline. On MM I was placed behind fellows who joined AC 10 years after I joined the airline industry. On Keller, if I was still around, I would be behind fellows who joined 8 years after me. If you would like a copy of the list, email me...confidentiality will be respected. kidi@sympatico.ca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powermatic Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Good job Kip. You should be real proud of yourself for starting this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 Good job Kip. You should be real proud of yourself for starting this thread. Yeh...just terrible having a civil conversation eh ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest directlaw Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Just messed up the thread. Deleted all my posts because it really doesn't matter cause it is over. I suggest the thread dies here. Movin on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 Sorry Kip........not correct. I was hired ) I have no problem with the Keller award as it pertains to the top half of the list. The bottom is a ridiculous mess because of the snowball effect of the ratio within Mr.Keller's Mitchnick correction. OK...I see where you are going now and in all honesty I am certainly not up on all the varibles in the "new" list. I was basing my reply on the only document at my disposal...the 2004 Keller seniority listand the old MM list. No one is really ecstatic with the final outcome but as you alluded to in your first post......it is time for all to move on. Having said that, I feel sorry for those that will be bitter to the very end. CP pilots never asked for the merger and neither did the AC pilots but what is done is done...move on, make the best of it and enjoy your short stay here on the planet. Have a nice long weekend and I appreciate your civility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Good job Kip. You should be real proud of yourself for starting this thread. The most important continuing issue in the airline industry ---and it shouldn't be discussed? Give your head a shake! It is only by discussion and by personalizing the results of an award that one has any real opportunity to comprehend the "meaning" of the award. To so many--Mitchnik was obviously unfair. Now, we receive an example where Keller results in an inequity to some OAC who would have benefitted (in retrospect) from DOH. What is surprising is that in this instance, it is the less senior who benefit from a DOH approach. The Picher award (for eg) was seen as disadvantaging the less senior who were opposed to DOH. More mergers will "threaten" the perspective that one's years of service at the "senior -successful" carrier are more valuable than another's years at a "lesser" carrier. Far better to deal with this issue within the industry rather than live with results that arise by reason of circumstances over which pilots have absolutely no control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest directlaw Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Have a nice weekend Kip, You are right......enjoy what we have You are also right that we should be able to have a civil conversation. I deleted my above posts not because of powermatics comments but rather because I just decided I'm movin on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropzone Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 I deleted my above posts not because of powermatics comments but rather because I just decided I'm movin on. Yes we all will move on but the damage has been done and all for purely selfish reasons. Fairness and lucidity NEVER saw the light of day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AIP Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Nice job there Kip. So good of you to gloat, enjoy your pension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 Nice job there Kip. So good of you to gloat, enjoy your pension. I wasn't going to reply but you, are over away over the line. Where, anywhere in this thread do I gloat?? I posted a fact, a fact that is on three other forums almost word for word. It is attitudes and perceptions like yours that will be the biggest stumbling block for formulating a cohesive pilot group in AC...so sad. I would suggest you take a lesson from directlaw but then again perhaps you would like to bunk in with powermatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AIP Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 I wasn't going to reply but you, are over away over the line. Where, anywhere in this thread do I gloat?? I posted a fact, a fact that is on three other forums almost word for word. It is attitudes and perceptions like yours that will be the biggest stumbling block for formulating a cohesive pilot group in AC...so sad. I would suggest you take a lesson from directlaw but then again perhaps you would like to bunk in with powermatic Ahh . . . . the holier than thou routine is it ?? Sorry there kipper not buying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropzone Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Where, anywhere in this thread do I gloat?? Kip For what it's worth I did not see your post as a gloat. However I do see the outcome as a sad day for all of us. Just what we as airline pilots are capable of doing to each other is what saddens me the most. If the OCP group sees this as a great victory over the OAC group then they don't really understand what they have done to us all. As I said, reason did not see the light of day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 However I do see the outcome as a sad day for all of us. Just what we as airline pilots are capable of doing to each other is what saddens me the most. If the OCP group sees this as a great victory over the OAC group then they don't really understand what they have done to us all. As I said, reason did not see the light of day. Well I'm privy to the OCP "Private" forum and the same message I put up here, which AIP seems to feel is gloating, was put on that forum by another individual. The comments over there do not indicate any gloating, nor "victory". For the most part all the comments tagged on the thread thank the OCP merger team for all their work and the general concensus is "it's time to move on." The same thread is on the OAC forum but those that did post , perhaps with a bitter thought, had second thoughts, and have deleted their posts. The subject of who did what to who can be debated forever...but what for? It's over and perhaps there will be peace in the valley. Hopefully those that have an axe to grind are in the minority and if they can't accept whatever the end result is, it is time for them to move on....... If the OCP group sees this as a great victory over the OAC group then they don't really understand what they have done to us all. I'm afraid I don't subscribe to that way of thinking. You, me and every other pilot had no input to the merger process. It was done by merger committees. I would hope that individuals do not take personal shots at others for something that was totally out of the hands of the many. And as a side note; if AIP had his own personal aircraft the problem could be solved. Have a nice weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AIP Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 "And as a side note; if AIP had his own personal aircraft the problem could be solved." Not quite sure I follow you there Kip, care to explain ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAT3DUAL Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Frankly Kip at what point did you ever care about a cohesive pilot group at AC. Your post have always come across as AC BAD, CP GOOD! Although as I recall from My CALPA days, you WD guys cried foul when it went date of hire, what was it something about carreer expectations already being acheived. Aviation has always brought the worse in people, the fact you would even start this thread is prime example. What did it contribute to cohesiveness, HELL! The intent was exactly the opposite, and you know it. What does a retired 737 co-pilot frankly care about what goes on at AC, particularly when your pension really is based on your mil time. Please inlighten me so I can understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropzone Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 If the OCP group sees this as a great victory over the OAC group then they don't really understand what they have done to us all. Kip Perhaps this is more relevant...... changing the last part of the sentence to "what the process has done to us all" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 the fact you would even start this thread is prime example Man you sure have a bitter and twisted impression of yours truly but throw all the dirt you want...the only one who is showing their true colors is you and the only thought I have when I read a rant like yours is that it is no wonder there will never be a cohesive pilot group in AC.......look in the mirror. And yes..me bad to post the outcome of a JR...so very bad. I guess it would be safe to say that if Keller was thrown out, not one individual would post that information on the forum...but hey, if you want to vent at me for posting a piece of information in an unbiased manner......you go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 Kip Perhaps this is more relevant...... changing the last part of the sentence to "what the process has done to us all" Very much so..thank you for the clarification......The pilot merger has been a debacle from the start.......... all in the name of one thing....greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 "And as a side note; if AIP had his own personal aircraft the problem could be solved." Not quite sure I follow you there Kip, care to explain ?? No.................certainly there was more to it, in jest , but I am loosing my sense of ha-ha based on the venomous posts from some of your cohorts. You, CAT3DUAL, and powermatic have your minds made up that I don't like AC, posted to gloat etc,.etc. so why yell into a vacuum? PS..if any of you can find posts where I "dissed" AC in all seriousness...bring'em on. I will certainly admit that I have poked fun at AC as well as Westjet but I guess some folks don't know humour when they see it, even with all the emoticons. Poor old CAT3DUAL doesn't even know what the hell my "pension(s)" are based on, attempts to demean my postion in the airline and does not know I am heavily involved with writing AC retirees bios and have contact with hundreds and am championing their efforts in producing a good quality biography. But hey...some minds are all ready madeup...so sad to have such a parochial view of a fellow pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 At least you've all had the benefit of "the process"... I don't know if it's any consolation to any of you from either side, but it strikes me as worth mentioning that your plight was at least considered worth some attention... to the point where it was revisited several times in attempts to iron out the differences. In contrast, in our little world of maintenance, we've had one - count'em, one (1) - arbitration award that left several of us X's essentially end-tailed, and our careers have been frozen 'til retirement (unless of course we either jump ship or join management), along with several instances where we believe the award has been misinterpreted by either company or union, or both... and not a single chance to appeal.... Some of our folks from the X side attempted to get the arbitrator to have a rethink, and his response was that the union had to make the request... well, the union is heavily weighted with folks from the O side, so that never happened. We've had a "section 37" complaint (failure of duty of fair representation) filed for an eon now, that seems to have been lost in some garbage heap... we were being told it was "shelved" during CCAA, but still, since our exit from that, not a word.... By now - five years later! - most of us have come to terms with forever being a lower status than the O's, but without so much as a single fair review of the award ( perhaps worthy of note: Some of the same reasoning that Michnick used, that was later determined to be improper [if I understand correctly], was used and written by our arbitrator [Adams] )... there is a feeling of having been run over by a truck. Anyway... I only mention this to offer the small notion of consolation, as I said, that at least your group was considered worthy enough to try to get it right. Best of luck to the lot'o'ya's... Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AIP Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Anyway... I only mention this to offer the small notion of consolation, as I said, that at least your group was considered worthy enough to try to get it right. Good post Mitch, but that is what is stuck in the craw of most of us "O"'s as you put it, the Keller award was never reviewed, neither by the CIRB, (as was promised)or the courts. If it is as fair and equitable as the "X"'s purport it to be then why not have a review and put it to bed once and for all ? ? That is all I wanted to see, as it stands it is going to be etched in minds for a very long time as windfall gains for some and exponential losses for others. Before everybody climbs all over me for that statement, the windfall gains I am being particular about is the group of former CRA drivers who now are positioned "BETTER" than DOH. I still need that explained to me someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 I understand the OAC were very happy with the original award and I therefore guess the OCP pilots were equally happy with the new situation...... I guess the reality is that there are always winners and losers and there will never be an award that makes everyone happy. There does however come a time when all involved have to accept the final results and allow life to go on. Life if too short to continue to be bitter about something that one can not change. As someone much smarter than I said: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change The courage to change those that I can And the wisdom to know the difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 Quote - AIP I am being particular about is the group of former CRA drivers who now are positioned "BETTER" than DOH. I still need that explained to me someday. The answer is very simple...ask RELIABLE sources...failing that, ask one of "your" merger reps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.