If....?

[Mitch Cronin]

If things were to improve within the AC family of pilots.... to what degree I won't surmise, but do certainly wonder??... would it be reasonable to expect to see the "OAC" stickers removed from some of the brainbags that now sport them?

....or is there some harmless explanation for their existence that could negate the harm they do?

[Kip Powick]

Mitch,

In every group there will be those that just won’t “let go”. Tradition dies hard and those that display “look at me” decals, that they think positions them within what they perceive as the elite group of the day, will be very reluctant to “change”.

The only time there will be complete change is when these particular individuals retire and thankfully leave the “company” to those that accept the change, or to those that have never heard of any specific “special” group.

Pilots are probably the worst in the airline industry for thinking what “they had” was the only way to be, and all the preaching in the world will never convert some who feel that the way things were, was the perfect world.

While I feel tradition has its place in every profession I also feel that “tradition for the sake of tradition” is a misused tool that eventually drives a wedge between a group of worker bees, all supposedly working toward the same goal.

[Guest acb4u]

[Guest Gone Flying]

Then you tell us.

[Mitch Cronin]

Your handle betrays your attitude I suppose...

Ummm.. because they're divisive... and division, especially of that sort, isn't a good thing for any of us?

.... uhhh Ya, that's why.

Can you not see that? Is there another viewpoint that includes reason?

[Mitch Cronin]

Wise words from the old sKipper.

Right on Kip. I guess it's just part of the law of the jungle.

(

[Guest acb4u]

I'll tell you what's devisive: An 8:1 ratio at the end of the list.

[Guest acb4u]

[Mitch Cronin]

If you're at the end of the list then you joined the company long after it all began.

What right could you possibly have to complain? You owe your job to all the pilots above you, from both CDN and AC, who forged the pathways and retired long before you came. You might have been still in diapers when most of the pilots above you were seasoned veterans.

Either give your head a serious shake, or.... have you got a hat?

[Guest acb4u]

I didn't used to be that close to the end. Why not turn your attention to explaining to me HOW pilot "A", who was at the mainline for two years when pilot "C" was not even on the property at Canadian Regional, HOW pilot "A" could come out of this thing way behind pilot "C"?

It's a simple question.

[GTFA]

Ahhh... the mysteries of career expectations.

That damn "predictior" will be the end of us all.

Careful in here Mitch. It's a dark and dirty world in the mind of pilot when you start talking about mergers.

GTFA

[bm330]

This thread is exactly why the previous "Winkler tell pilots to merge" will never happen. It's an over simplification but essentially ACPA was formed because the senior pilots at AC were loosing control over events. The dust hasn't even settled on the Keller award and now Mr Winkler is proposing to start the same thing all over again?

[Guest leftbase]

Hey maybe if you stay really bitter things will change for the better.

Then again, maybe you'll just get an ulcer and turn into one of those sad souls who still answers a friendly greeting of "How's it going?" with "Not bad for a guy that got screwed out of 15 years of seniority".

And of course, seniority could be moot in the near future. Then you'll REALLY have someting to be bitter about. Well, at least you'll have someone to blame.

tra la la

[Guest AME]

Mitch

I admire your bravdo for wading into the Pilot thing, at one time my thoughts were somewhat similar (although I was a tad bit biased )

Now, for reasons of my own sanity I simply enjoy the show as it can be quite entertaining at times

Brett

Brett

[Guest Nordo]

Mitch,

....or is there some harmless explanation for their existence that could negate the harm they do?

I guess they are as harmful or harmless as those goose pins or other ex-airline paraphernalia that are floating around these days.

Perhaps it would be best if all were to find there way to the collector drawer.

Nordo

[Kip Powick]

It would appear that you are very bitter about the AC/CDN merger, in particular where you ended up. Based on the small sample of what you posted, you are a very junior member of AC..near the bottom. I am sure you are aware that MM came along and naturally the CP pilots were outraged. In all honesty many of the middle of the road AC pilots felt it was not a good thing. Keller came along and made a fair list, not totally agreeable with the CP fellows but something they could live with. Not too many waves from the AC fellows …….except for the junior pilots.

If you really feel that you have had an injustice done to yourself then cruise over to the EZ Board and go to the AC Forum and read some of the posts. There are a few that are brave enough to go up against the resident expert with an irrefutable data base but, in the end most have to concede that what is supposed to be final is fair.

All the writing I do, will not convince you one way or the other and perhaps you will receive a ground swell of support concerning your comments from other OACs, probably those near the bottom of the list…..but do bear in mind the following……

Neither AC nor CP asked for the merger.

Both groups did, or are doing, what they think is best for their members.

All the posturing/screaming/whining/berating etc. any individual does is not going to have any effect on the final outcome…no matter when that is.

Again based on what you have written you have a lifetime ahead of you…are you going to carry the bitterness with you until they hand you the tin plaque, or are you going to get over it, lead a normal life and enjoy each day you get…… cause it is one closer to your last??

PS…I would say for starters..... you might consider changing your handle…it’s …well……you know….

[Guest acb4u]

...until my last gasp on the face of this earth.

[Guest acb4u]

MM was fair because it was percentile.

MM was supposed to be final.

Perhaps you sense more "waves" from the junior AC pilots because they were screwed the hardest.

How is an 8:1 ratio for the last third of the list fair?

Not too agreeable to the CP types you say? What a joke - you new hires made out like bandits. Air Canada - "North American home of the direct entry Captain!"

[Guest eights wild]

Kind of like those old Britts that still wear white cotton gloves in the cockpit.

WTF?

[Seeker]

Wow! A whole two years, no wonder you're so bitter, twisted and messed up. I don't know how you manage to carry on, really I don't. Any lesser man than you would have just ended it all by now - you know - gone to the Home Hardware and bought 50 feet of blue poly rope. Losing all that seniority is a catastophe. You must really hate all those Canadian guys for doing this to you, and the judge, and Jerry for starting the whole thing in the first place. It's so unfair, it isn't right............................................and so on, and so on, and so on - forever.

[Guest acb4u]

[Edited by Admin. Please refer to our posting guidelines which can be found off the Home menu]

The two years does not represent the total amount of seniority lost. It's a snap shot of two individuals. It translates to a loss to pilot "A" of about ten years seniority, rather a windfall boost to pilot"C". Read the post again (this time try not to move your lips, even though your mouth will probabley be agape), turn off the TV, and report back to me.

[Mitch Cronin]

I'm pleased to see that one earlier contributor to this thread has apparently decided his comments weren't appropriate. Kudos to him for the deletions...

As for Goose pins and similar... I wouldn't have thought they'd bring resentment, any more than early AC pins or stickers.. or old PWA, CP, ETC. tidbits... like the brainbags, we sport such stuff on our toolboxes.

But ya know... if one item or another is particularly offensive to one group or another, if that were known, I'm sure there are many who would choose to avoid causing the offense. I do understand, and if I ever heard anyone object to the DC10 pin I wear, I'd stop wearing it.

From what I've heard, the OAC sticker is more likely to be sported precisely because it causes offense. If so, that's a shame.

[Guest acb4u]

While I made the decision to erase my posts, I most certainly don't retract the message.

[Guest Nordo]

Mitch,

I was going to ask about the stickers on the tool boxes.

The couple of the ones I"ve seen provide a history lesson via stickers to what aviation used to be in this country.

I hope they find a place of honor in their owners workshop when they retire.

I believe we should take pride in where we have come from but more importantly we should take pride in where we are now.

In my opinion, the old bits of uniform and pins and stickers can be seen, rightly or wrongly, as a sign of not wanting to get on with what we have now but trying to hold onto what once was.

Don"t know what its like on the hangar floor but I can imagine that it would get just as tiresome hearing about how we did things over at good old ( insert your old airline here)

It came to me very early on in this merger process, that if I ever had to go work for a new outfit( who"d a thunk it) the last thing I"d do in the work place was wax poetic about the previous employer. I"d probably be too busy trying to learn the way this employer would like things done than to harp about how much better things used to be .

Anyway,how well do you think both the goose pin and the OAC sticker would go over at Clive's place?

[Mitch Cronin]

Hi Nordo,

Re: "Don"t know what its like on the hangar floor but I can imagine that it would get just as tiresome hearing about how we did things over at good old ( insert your old airline here)"

Absolutely! I cringe when I hear words like that, and sadly, I continue to hear it... I make a point of discouraging that sort of talk, as nicely as I can, among my fellow "ex" colleagues... and most agree when we discuss it... but then it still happens.

Some of the reasons for that are no doubt found in the continuing failings of our current employer... it does get rather frustrating when you see, on an almost daily basis, the problems that occur because ego's got in the way of making the best use of "synergies"... and when you know of better, more efficient methods than are currently being employed...

Still, suggestions for improvements and such can be made without referring to "Airline X". ...and in reality, any mention of "Airline X" is likely to have the effect of turning off the listener's ability to hear.

Anyway, again I'd say, if the Goose pins are causing some grief, I'd be willing to bet a large number of those wearing them aren't aware of that... and if they were, I'd think most would remove them.

Now tell me... Do you think my DC10 pin has a good chance of having that effect on people?... It's about an inch and a half long and you have to look pretty close to see that it has a faded chevron on it's tail.