Guest Kaytoo Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Do Air BC, Air Nova, Alliance and NWT Pilots also have lawsuits pending. Didn't they all get screwed in the same manner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Do the others have a lawsuit pending? NO Did they get screwed in the same manner? Depends who you talk to but IMHO - No (besides define screwed) Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest traf Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Not even all the former AO pilots are involved. The only people that are a part of the infamous lawsuit are a group of pre 95 (I believe)senior members of what used to be AO. No one from AO after that point is a part of the lawsuit. No one from ABC, ANOV or CRA are a part of it. ALPA is not a part of it. These individuals fund it from their own pockets and don't get one red cent from the post 95 AO pilots, the CRA pilots, the ABC pilots or the ANOV pilots. Hope this clears it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Unfortunately IT is still an obstacle to any dialogue and a solution.....most ACPA members who want to talk cannot because this thing is standing in the way...........JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehighclub Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 If this tiny obstacle in your way means everything for you; you're not ready to talk at all... I don't think it is healthy at this time to "join our destiny" when you are not even talking on the same level ! Are you married? If yes, you know what i mean when i talk about "bilateral communications" When someone is talking: Try to LISTEN AND UNDERSTAND what he/she talks about. If you don't do so, don't be surprised if your interlocutor is not givin' a damn about what you're saying !!! MHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 You missed the point completely..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 I don't think they missed the point at all. Its kind of like when a person of one race or heritage steals your car; I guess the lessor person would hate them all ...whats that word I'm looking for?....predu?....racis?....uh...big?...ah, can't put my finger on it. Your excuses don't wash, you want the Jazz pilots never involved, and the ACPA pilots never invovled to clean up the mess created by you folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Ah, just what was needed: unprejudiced comments. ("Your excuses don't wash, you want the Jazz pilots never involved, and the ACPA pilots never invovled to clean up the mess created by you folks.") Not that there aren't, as always, exceptions... but it's generally true that a problem is at its most intractible when people on both sides of the issue point the figure at the other and accuse them of bigotry and prejudice. Are you the solution, or are you the problem? neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 You and I have an agreement. I allege you broke that agreement as a result of which I sue you for the resulting damages. Does that lawsuit prevent you and I from entering into other agreements? Obviously not. You don't agree that I sustained damages or, alternatively, you do agree but don't want to "cough up". Does that render my lawsuit unreasonable? Obviously not. As stated elsewhere, the lawsuit is not RATIONALLY a hindrance to any ongoing discussions or negotiations relative to the future unless (could this possibly be?) defendants to the lawsuit with honeyed promises hope to enlist Jazz pilots who are not members of the class as instruments of persuasion to "convince" their brethren to compromise their claims. "Gee, guys. Help us get rid of this lawsuit and we'll be able to come up with a list that will get you onto our list and into mainline with all of the attendant benefits. Unfortunately, we can't do that with the lawsuit hanging over our heads. You understand that, don't you?" Yeah, right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 As I said....and this is only my opinion.... I know that there are many AC pilots who share the same view....as long as the AO lawsuit exists there will be a reluctance to seek any solution regardless of your ideas to the contrary..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 I could have used wording like ‘guilt by association’ but that would be plagiarism. You see, my 3.5 years of seniority was obviously the problem when a 767 Captain denied my access to the Jumpseat on the second sector of a full flight and I had to get off. I asked why to which he said: “I won’t be taking you as you are suing me”…to my defense I offered that I wasn’t involved in this. However he said ‘you are guilty by association-enjoy Toronto’. (Which translates to me that I am a Jazz pilot and therefore not welcome) How do you think I felt when I deplaned? Would I do the same? Absolutely not. Am I part of the problem? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 I am one ACPA member that does not share that view. I venture a guess there are many more OAC post '95 and then there are the 1100 or so from Canadian who do not share that view. There is no reluctance from me to seek a solution. To me it seems absurd to stall the evolution of our relationship because of this lawsuit. I may add that there are a fraction of Jazz employees who pursue this lawsuit. To find resolve, the focus must remain on solution. With all due respect to both of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 I find that truly unfortunate.. I cannot believe these things are happening between us. If I were the FO that day, I would likely have gotten off with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 PortTack, If I reacted to a "one-of" like you I would never have another Jazz-jumper. I have been denied a seat on JAZZ many times as well as been graciously offered the jump there many times. Likewise I have had many Jazz jumpers and never repeat not EVER have I denied any pilot the jumpseat. I prefer my method since its the right thing to do IMHO as a side benefit it increases my chances to get the jumpseat. That you had this happen to you does not make us all unreasonable. As one old Captain used to say regarding the fairer sex "You seen one - you seen one!" Cheers Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Good post Chico and I just want to echo it. I have had the same experiences with jump seating. I am one pre 95 AC pilot, that is included in the law suit that believes that it should have no bearing whatsoever on coming to an agreement with JAZZ pilots on thia issue of seniority. Greg Robinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Perhaps it's my fault for being too oblique. PortTack on the one hand: "However he said ‘you are guilty by association-enjoy Toronto’. (Which translates to me that I am a Jazz pilot and therefore not welcome) How do you think I felt when I deplaned? Would I do the same? Absolutely not. Am I part of the problem? No." And PortTack on the other... "Your excuses don't wash, you want the Jazz pilots never involved, and the ACPA pilots never invovled to clean up the mess created by you folks." In the past 15 years in the Air Canada system (8+ with ABC and 6+ with AC) I've met an endless stream of individuals, much like yourself, with the earnest and sincerely held belief that it's all the other side's fault. Frequently, some of those individuals (usually anonymously) liven the place up when they vent their anger at what they're convinced is the injustice of it all and their personal place at the focus of all ACPA's/ALPA's machinations. And nothing ever changes for the better. What's needed is more individuals who are willing to set aside their feelings, (including those informed by legitimate beefs) in the knowledge that to move ahead requires it. That's the bottom line. The collective dysfunction that is ACPA's and ALPA's relationship will not change until those who make up those unions are willing to forget the past and embrace the future. So, on the contrary amigo, the second you say, "It's all your fault...", "You made this mess...", (or my personal favorite) "You screwed us and took my job!" then you ARE the problem. Not because your complaint is illegitimate, because there may indeed be validity to it... but because the way ahead requires a different mindset and you refuse to acquire it. Best, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Perhaps it's my fault for being too oblique. PortTack on the one hand: "However he said ‘you are guilty by association-enjoy Toronto’. (Which translates to me that I am a Jazz pilot and therefore not welcome) How do you think I felt when I deplaned? Would I do the same? Absolutely not. Am I part of the problem? No." And PortTack on the other... "Your excuses don't wash, you want the Jazz pilots never involved, and the ACPA pilots never involved to clean up the mess created by you folks." In the past 15 years in the Air Canada system (8+ with ABC and 6+ with AC) I've met an endless stream of individuals, much like yourself, with the earnest and sincerely held belief that it's all the other side's fault. Frequently, some of those individuals (usually anonymously) liven the place up when they vent their anger at what they're convinced is the injustice of it all and their personal place at the focus of all ACPA's/ALPA's machinations. And nothing ever changes for the better. What's needed is more individuals who are willing to set aside their feelings, (including those informed by legitimate beefs) in the knowledge that to move ahead requires it. That's the bottom line. The collective dysfunction that is ACPA's and ALPA's relationship will not change until those who make up those unions are willing to forget the past and embrace the future. So, on the contrary amigo, the second you say, "It's all your fault...", "You made this mess...", (or my personal favorite) "You screwed us and took my job!" then you ARE the problem. Not because your complaint is illegitimate, because there may indeed be validity to it... but because the way ahead requires a different mindset and you refuse to acquire it. Best, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 From the begining I've said that it is the mess caused by BOTH ACPA and ALPA. Of the several thousand not involved, constanly we are asked to shoulder the past problems. How many posts have been on this site over the stupid AO suit. 95 pilots that worked for a seperate company and yet somehow Jazz is invloved in a roadblock for talking. I personally don't really care about the past....I do care about the future. Here I'm getting judged again. Your post comes off as if I have some bitter harboured feelings? your way off. Or maybe I have a right to your job, not true. I'm simpley pointing out my being a Jazz pilot makes me somehow different or unwelcome. Yes there even present Jazz pilots who paint everyone at AC the same too. I don't take part in it, but I do blame both sides. Its like watching kids throw sand in each others faces and its one of the biggest problems with working amongst each other. What would be the situation had a civilized, mutual working environment been in place before CCAA? I don't think we would have a race to the bottom for RJ's. Its time to move on but I am frustrated to watch so many posters mention the "AO Lawsuit" as a prerequisit to talks....how do these folks think there is any control from the ALPA MEC? As for myself I won't have to care in a while, I have one foot out the door anyway, but I'll obviously watch from the side and hope this gets resolved someday. Anyway, I Gotta hit the sack, I'll have a read in the morning, good night. PS-anonymously on the AEF for my own reasons; but we have met from when you have commuted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Ah, well that explains the confusion. Somehow, when you wrote about the mess all being caused by WA777's group (presumably those named in the lawsuit by some AO pilots?) it led me to believe that you don't see the responsibility that all sides have in the matter. My mistake. Have a nice day. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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