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Jazz to go after Rjs..


Guest Dash eight

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"What did AC charge Jazz in the past for such things as publications, deicing, ground handling, deadheading and a myriad of other services? I am just cynical enough to believe that the price has gone up in the last year or so."

AC was charging AO 1M a month for "brand recognition" & 800K a month for ground services in YZ, UL, & OW. AO could have done it all itself for far less and with a better result.

In spite of AC's rape of AO, AO continued to generate a very large annual profit. At one point AO's employee profit sharing plan was cancelled. The employee's were soon advised that because AC wasn't generating any form of profit its employee's felt slighted. Consequently, AO was forced to take away the bonus plan. Over the last decade or so AC continued to provide its employee's with big raises etc in spite of the fact that it itself perpetually lost huge dollars.

Add it all up and one can begin to see why AC has finally failed. Based on past practice and the present visionary direction it's almost a certainty that AC will end up right back in CCAA again.

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Hi Labtec,

I won't comment on the rumours you mentioned, but I found your description of the situation at ACPA and JAZZ ALPA very interesting.

I don't agree with your perspective entirely, but I think you make some valid points. My comments:

"The greed of those controlling the unions in a play to screw over their mutual adversaries at the connector and mainline. The senior pilots in Canada that control both trade unions are literally destroying the profession at the airlines."

I believe that a number of different attitudes have prevented ACPA and JAZZ-ALPA from coming to terms that would be favorable for all their members. Be those attitudes greed, anger, a sense of betrayal, fear, suspicion or whatever, they've been an impediment to securing a better future for all of us. And thus, they have no place in the decision-making of our unions.

Are the pilots you mention literally destroying the profession? I think you grossly overstate the case. There are a number of factors putting pressure on our jobs. Some of them are completely out of our unions' control. The people who make decisions for us are working under very difficult circumstances... I don't think it would be stretching it to say the most difficult ever. So I disagree that anyone is single-handedly destroying the profession. I feel instead that our unions and the people working for us are under 'attack' by complex and varied issues, and are doing the best they humanly can.

But there have been, in my opinion, serious mistakes made. Some of those mistakes carry a lot of culpability, because they come from willful blindness. But that is a human failing. So too is neglecting to speak out when things are headed in the wrong direction. There's been plenty of warning signs for a long time. Those of us who didn't speak out now bear responsibility as well.

"There is tremendous dis-satisfaction with ACPA by the bottom third of the mainline."

I don't have any information to confirm or deny your claim. But considering that I've been a vocal critic of some of ACPA's choices, and that I reside in the bottom third at the mainline, you may be interested in my point of view.

Getting a new union in will change nothing for the better, on its own. If you don't like the direction things are going, SPEAK OUT! Make your opinion known to all and sundry. Demand that your union leaders address issues in a business-like manner, not from emotional bias. But bear in mind, there are some issues that our union leadership has had to deal with where a negative outcome is inevitable. They can't change that it would be negative, only how negative it would be for certain people.

Roughly 10% of ACPA's pilots have been given layoff notice, and strong indications are that fewer than that will actually be laid off. Other unions have laid off 25% of their members. Why? Because they instead chose to get a 5% wage rollback. ACPA chose to concentrate on saving jobs, rather than maintaining wages. There's pros and cons to that, but I sure won't criticize the choice.

Along with that is my gratitude to all members, especially senior ones, who agreed to have their wages rolled back 16% or more. That's a big sacrifice for everyone, and doing so means ACPA keeps more members on the payroll than had the wage rollback been smaller. That sacrifice comes biggest at the senior end and so once again, you sure won't hear me criticize it.

Bottom line? If you don't like the choices being made, speak out loudly! Changing the flag will make no difference to how things are done in ACPAland or ALPAville. Demanding that things be done differently, on the other hand, has been known to get results.

neo

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Hi Labtec,

I won't comment on the rumours you mentioned, but I found your description of the situation at ACPA and JAZZ ALPA very interesting.

I don't agree with your perspective entirely, but I think you make some valid points. My comments:

"The greed of those controlling the unions in a play to screw over their mutual adversaries at the connector and mainline. The senior pilots in Canada that control both trade unions are literally destroying the profession at the airlines."

I believe that a number of different attitudes have prevented ACPA and JAZZ-ALPA from coming to terms that would be favorable for all their members. Be those attitudes greed, anger, a sense of betrayal, fear, suspicion or whatever, they've been an impediment to securing a better future for all of us. And thus, they have no place in the decision-making of our unions.

Are the pilots you mention literally destroying the profession? I think you grossly overstate the case. There are a number of factors putting pressure on our jobs. Some of them are completely out of our unions' control. The people who make decisions for us are working under very difficult circumstances... I don't think it would be stretching it to say the most difficult ever. So I disagree that anyone is single-handedly destroying the profession. I feel instead that our unions and the people working for us are under 'attack' by complex and varied issues, and are doing the best they humanly can.

But there have been, in my opinion, serious mistakes made. Some of those mistakes carry a lot of culpability, because they come from willful blindness. But that is a human failing. So too is neglecting to speak out when things are headed in the wrong direction. There's been plenty of warning signs for a long time. Those of us who didn't speak out now bear responsibility as well.

"There is tremendous dis-satisfaction with ACPA by the bottom third of the mainline."

I don't have any information to confirm or deny your claim. But considering that I've been a vocal critic of some of ACPA's choices, and that I reside in the bottom third at the mainline, you may be interested in my point of view.

Getting a new union in will change nothing for the better, on its own. If you don't like the direction things are going, SPEAK OUT! Make your opinion known to all and sundry. Demand that your union leaders address issues in a business-like manner, not from emotional bias. But bear in mind, there are some issues that our union leadership has had to deal with where a negative outcome is inevitable. They can't change that it would be negative, only how negative it would be for certain people.

Roughly 10% of ACPA's pilots have been given layoff notice, and strong indications are that fewer than that will actually be laid off. Other unions have laid off 25% of their members. Why? Because they instead chose to get a 5% wage rollback. ACPA chose to concentrate on saving jobs, rather than maintaining wages. There's pros and cons to that, but I sure won't criticize the choice.

Along with that is my gratitude to all members, especially senior ones, who agreed to have their wages rolled back 16% or more. That's a big sacrifice for everyone, and doing so means ACPA keeps more members on the payroll than had the wage rollback been smaller. That sacrifice comes biggest at the senior end and so once again, you sure won't hear me criticize it.

Bottom line? If you don't like the choices being made, speak out loudly! Changing the flag will make no difference to how things are done in ACPAland or ALPAville. Demanding that things be done differently, on the other hand, has been known to get results.

neo

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I just can't figure out why AC would want to get rid of the former Air Nova operation out east. They did great work before their wagon was hitched to the AO, ABC, and Alliance horse

Alliance deal came first and Air Nova took them over. As for AO, most of us would rather have never been involved with them and their management types.

from a GX mtc.

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Guest Dash eight

Well said thin fin.

A/O has been raped over and over by mainline it is a shame that we werent sold back in the 90s never mind having mainline by us 100%. Ever since they did we have been going down the pipe.

Ive been with Ao/jazz since 89 and it amazes me the types of decisions that are being made without any idea as to the consequences....! Take for exapmle the idea of pulling out of the London ottawa montreal market.. Why would they do this other than the very poor excuse of its taking too much business away from GTAA! Give me a flipping break. Ok Toronto gets a new terminal built etc so they need as much revenue by way of user fees etc to pay for it. Well, what the hell have other airports done? Look at london to stay on topic. A multi million dollar expansion and we are going to cut our flying out of there??

Jazz has become nothing but a lame horse with the present top management and their shortsightedness. if they dont change their ways then jazz might as well follow mainline down that country field with the farmer and his shot gun in tow!!

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I like Wizard's reply. Someone else posted the stuff about AirBC, AO, Alliance but as is quite possible with misinformation, unreliable sources and possibly someone that is a junior employee, Air Nova inheriting Alliances wagon, they brought among themselves. The stupidity ruled from the Haliban ever since. Most of us will remember mtc control leaving YXU and the gong show it turned out to be in the East. We can also add the expensive gear pin flags even though GX had flags that worked perfectly well and were much more cost effective. We can add the 180 grand spent on the new soap dispensers for all the bases. This was after 9/11 when we had to cut all costs and lay off staff. To top it off, at last count there is about 4 different versions of the part one logbook floating around. Separating us into what we used to be would be a blessing.

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Guest PortTack

You've got that right! I think Robert Milton may have had all the former Connector CEO's take IQ tests and picked the stupidest bunch of 'yes clowns' out of the bunch! (because he didn't want anyone smarter than him)

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