Guest GDR Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Hi Dick See my response below. If the aircraft go to JAZZ they will go whether we can agree to this or not. If the aircraft go to JAZZ, tell me, how does agreeing to this suggestion of combining the seniortiy lists have any negative affect on them? If they are laid off the prospect of a job in the right seat of a Dash 8 might be appealing or it might not, but at least they would have the choice. I'm not suggesting to anyone that their representatives should stop trying to get that flying for the people they represent. I would suggest however that if we had come to an agreement on combining lists a few years ago we wouldn't be fighting to see who will do the flying at the cheapest rate now. This suggestion is meant to deal with the next set of issues, not the ones that we are currently facing. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terminated Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Greg, Yeah, I agree. It does need to be separated from all the other issues. To make it clear, I do believe that regardless of the current 'battle', that the bottoming of the lists is a definite step in the right direction. I guess I was just looking for some input on how that might be combined with a more short term solution as well. My concern is that if Jazz gets all the flying, then will the mainline attitude become even more of a F-you mentality. And if Mainline gets all the flying, then will the predominant mainline feeling be 'we won, screw you'. But I'd prefer to go with the more optimistic approach, and trust that there are more people like yourself that are able to see beyond the short term differences in order to help return the professionalism to our industry and 2 groups. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Hi Gurk I think that you may be right, but I hope not. You mention that no one will be prepared to sacrifice anything. That is one of the things about this proposal. There are no sacrifices to be made. If we can at least agree on this where there is no downside for either group, then maybe in the future we will be able to find resolutions to some of the more contentious problems. Cheers Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dick Dastardly Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I understand what you are saying but I still believe that finding a solution that provides opportunities to both parties rather than one or the other would be preferable. It seems that you are advocating a single list but as far as the contentious flying goes..."the fights on" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Hi Dick You said, >>>I understand what you are saying but I still believe that finding a solution that provides opportunities to both parties rather than one or the other would be preferable.<<< Sure it would be better but it is unlikely to happen. Let's deal with what can be dealt with as it is better to accomplish something rather than nothing. You also said, >>>It seems that you are advocating a single list but as far as the contentious flying goes..."the fights on"<<< Yes that's largely true, but, like I said, if we can agree on the easy things we can then start looking at more difficult issues and who knows what can be accomplished. Certainly if we can resolve the seniority issue it'll make all the other issues easier. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qtip Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I suggest we get in touch with the Continental MEC and ask them how they did it. They have a great relationship with the Continental Express pilots and if we want a chance to complete our careers in the same uniform it might be worth the call. In the meantime AC Corp. is the only one with any cards left in the deck. Come on ALPA and ACPA lets get this behind us ASAP!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terminated Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 "Continental MEC ......they have a great relationship with the Continental Express pilots" I overheard a pilot the other day, complaining about the mainliners, and flowthrough, and job access, and flowbacks.....nope, not Jazz, but a continental express pilot. It is not working out all roses and sugarplum fairies over there. Quite the opposite. The Mutual Bottom of the list is the best idea. And as GDR says, if nothing else, we start with that, then try to move on to some of the other, more difficult issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1V2Vgo Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 If you wish to add integrity to your post, please drop the term "feeder", and maybe regional folk will read on beyond that point. Another option would be to prefix with "Bottom" and really let us know how you feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fasteddy Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 O K...but if Mr.A. joins Jazz, and is now on the bottom of AC list also, how does the top Jazz dude get the position at AC if he is now junior to someone OTS? Still a curious fasteddy...there must be something I'm still missing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I've heard the exact opposite from COEX pilots, some say its great and yes, I've also heard some say it's bad. The bottom line is their system is working....are system is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I've met some COEX pilots that say it's great. Some may say it's bad but the difference is they have a system in place that is working, and that system is keeping far more people employed than our two groups. Regards, PortTack...(unemployed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skirt Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I'm back! I was going to stay away from posting on this site forever, but as we all know, forever is a hell of a long time! What made me give up my silence is this great discussion going on here. I think Greg’s idea has lots of merit! I also believe that it could be altered a little to accommodate the new proposed flying. (i.e. 70-110 seats) Think about this. If we merge lists as GDR suggests, could we not get the same AOC? Or at the very least incorporate the same SOP’s to make training the same on like equipment? The reason I say this is why can’t we buy the A/C for both the airlines? Say Jazz has 1/6 the # of pilots that AC does. So, if mother buys 60 a/c then 10 go to Jazz and 50 to mainline. With the same SOP’s the training would be the same, thus needing only one training department. (Manned by both sides) Also with the same SOP’s, the flow over from one side to the other would be easier. I know this is confusing, but I’m sure someone with a bigger brain than mine could figure it out! I do like the idea of both sides trying to figure things out and working together! It’s awfully nice to see people behaving nicely around here. P.S. As one who is posted as “Surplus” on the last mainline equip bid, I would jump at the chance to be a D-8 FO rather than joining the EI line, or manning the fry station at McD’s! I might even get some overnights at Freddy!!! Let’s get this going Greg and others on both sides. We can make it work! Skirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sawbones Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Greg, You spout a lot of rhetoric on this, and the AC Pilots' forum, but have you ever contributed any meaningful time and effort by working in an official capacity on behalf of your association? It's too easy to be critical, and helpful, from the sidelines. Solutions won't be found here. I've been airline flying for 24 years and have done my share, in my humble opinion, of "union work" ... a difficult, time-consuming, and demanding task. Have you done your share? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I don't know exactly what my share would be, but I did serve on 2 LECs and was equipment chair for 4 years on the DC9 and did the blocking for just about all of that time. As far as being able to express opinions, or spout a lot of rhetoric I think that all that is required, is that I pay my dues. Cheers Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qtip Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Put the reg jets where they belong and let the company grow instead of die would be a start. Then mutual bottom of the list will be just fine. Any layoffs at the mainline you go BOTL at the reg and if you go to the mainline you start at BOTL. That's fair. Better yet lets vote on it!! But let the company put the equipment where they want it first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 727driver Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Greg You have done more than your fair share over the last 31+ years. How soon they forget Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I would suggest that the company's survival is not dependant on who it is that flies the new aircraft. At the end of the day one group is going to be unhappy. There is no linkage between that problem however and the suggestion of combining seniority lists. As I have said in several other posts the idea of combining seniority lists now is to solve the next problem, not the current one. Cheers Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 "As far as being able to express opinions, or spout a lot of rhetoric I think that all that is required, is that I pay my dues." And the heartiest of "AMEN's" to that! neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Good one! Really. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Greg, Could I please commend your suggestion, and your clear thinking and admirable focus around it. I agree that it will not address the current battle that Mr. Rovinescu has created among us. Nor would it preclude the use of that strategy for the future, although it could blunt some of its fangs. But on the plus side, negotiating a seniority deal such as you have suggested could certainly provide an all-important starting point for mutual co-operation between the two employee groups. It has to start somewhere... it MUST start somewhere... so focusing on the do-able is a sound strategy. Great work! neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 "I don't see any appetite for this in either of the MECs so it would have to be membership driven. Who knows, but the hard feelings surrounding the Picher issue have lasted longer than the hard feelings after World War II." I'm just a member and I can tell you, I'm not hungry either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buskipper Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Give, Bitter, not at all. I really like my job and have always tried to maintain a very positive attitude throughout all the turbulence a career in aviation brings. There's no anger or bitterness in my posting - just my perception of the situation. BTW, Keller is between the two mainline pilot groups and we will work it out eventually, I hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 My hat's off to you, sir, for that post. That's a good attitude. Reminds me of "Smile and wave". Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1V2Vgo Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Aw Jeepers Neo, thanx!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amejazz Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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