What the heck are you saying?

[John S.]

Hi Richard,

I started a new thread as this quote deserves its own.

You replied to me:

"There's no point in any of us pretending to have leverage that we don't really have. In their wisdom, the regional pilots have already signed their agreement and so your die is cast. Your fate now rests with the mainline pilots and what they decide to do. You put yourselves in that position; no one else did it for you."

Well, Richard, that's a rather pompous and exaggerated statement. I mean don’t all those other union's lawyers, the company and its lawyers, the judges and the CREDITORS have some say in the matter?

I'm pretty sure that in spite of the ACPA arrogance (which I find you seldom spout like the above quote) that AC will survive with Plan A, B or C.

Dont forget about the Cost Effective National Airline model.

[Guest V1V2Vgo]

Good for you John S. Richard is on glue.

FYI- RM does not control the airline, nor does ACPA. It's all about the dollar, and that puts the creditors in the left seat, with a healthy dose of input from the judges. Oh, and by the way, remember the thread a while back, "never, ever PO a Judge?".......

[Guest neo]

Oh for goodness sake, John. Imagine you're playing a game of poker, the bettings done, and you've laid your cards on the table. The other players have yet to show you their cards. Is it pompous and exaggerated to say that your fate lies in the hands of those players who have yet to lay their hands down?

I'll tell you one thing: the regional pilots would sure sound more like 'players' if they stopped going into Sensitive Mode every time something gets said that could, if parsed enough times, possibly, maybe, potentially contain some offhand slight.

And there's already a cost-effective national airline, John. If you're going to go up against them, you're going to need a lot thicker skin than you're showing here.

Good luck, just the same.

neo

[Guest neo]

Let's see now... you think I'm on glue, Scotty M. thinks I should be on Prozac, Mitch thinks I should smoke B.C. bud, and just about everyone thinks I drink too much of my own crop.

But the funny thing is, everyone keeps reading what I write. Maybe it's like when people can't take their eyes off a train wreck.

Or maybe not.

neo

[Guest Fax]

Or maybe not.

You've slammed people for being "anonymous"...yet you're recent diatribe is all based on an "anonymous" phone call.

For Gawd sakes neo.......if I were to leave a message on your answering machine that Branson was getting prime slots into Heathrow because he's the Queen's love child......would you run to the Mirror?

Personally, I'm still looking for some evidence of your outrageous claim during the Iraqi conflict that Turkey had invaded northern Irag...but that's just me.

It's a crappy time for everyone in aviation.

Try & demonstrate some calm will ya...you have in the past.

[John S.]

Hi Richard,

If the dealing's done and we're just laying out the cards then the future is cast. So yes, it would be an exaggeration to say that our fate is in the hands of those players yet to show.

Wait a sec. I just thought of something - UNLESS THAT PLAYER FOLDS! Then it WOULD be pompous and exaggerating. Man, that would be interesting in a high stakes game!

But I don't think that the dealer's dealing is done yet. On the same theme - who do you see as the dealer in our little card game?

Take care,

John S.

PS - I try not to be too 'sensitive mode' and most certainly do not represent the regional pilots any more than you represent the ACPA pilots. I rather enjoy most forum 'discussions' even if it is not the easiest way to communicate our feelings.

And by the way - good luck, just the same to you. (If anybody is counting co-worker comments I'm sure you're beating me hands down!)

[Don Hudson]

Neo;

Regarding your comments on the ACPA Negots Committee on another thread, I agree wholeheartedly. And you are right: these subtleties are crucial.

I also commend you on your attempts to deal with two very complex, separate yet in many ways connected, issues, and bring into public discussion, aspects of the current situation which are relevant to us all. You are right that they will definitely affect one another regardless of whether that is right or wrong. They are inextricably linked, given present conditions.

Although there are many calls to keep the issues separate and to treat them as separate entities (ie, in isolation from one another), that is for all practical purposes, impossible under the present circumstances.

A number of impending events now loom, some of which can materially affect the airline, depending upon their nature. The vote on the TA and its timing, the Keller List and its release, and Bid 0301, closing June 30th all are significant events, and which are all entertwined, whether we like it or not. At present, none of us know when those releases will occur, nor can we expect to predict the outcomes of any votes or strategies.

Those who's lives will be materially affected by these events are keenly aware of the ramifications of the various rulings and potential outcomes. Many others outside the airline are equally keenly aware and watching.

You have raised the topic and engaged the dialogue. Many have taken you to task, some quite harshly, for what has been posted. Yet none provide alternative views or solid evidence to the contrary. A chorus of dismissal does not address the original discussion points.

In my opinion, rather than dismiss or marginalize such thoughts which have been expressed, an examination of the various modes of outcomes would be more profitable an enterprise, ranging from a completely benign ruling to its polar opposite and see what obtains.

It is our careers which are at stake here, and free discussion of possibilities is natural. In the end, when the list and award finally become public, we will know for certain, whether the discussion and the points raised were meaningful or irrelevant. In the end, most events go where they are going to go. The point of a forum such as this, is to clarify and broach points which are sometimes controversial.

In this case we are lucky. Very soon, we will have an answer to the commentary everyone has offered so far. And then, for better or for worse, the issues likely end up on autopilot.

Don

[Don Hudson]

Neo;

Regarding your comments on the ACPA Negots Committee on another thread, I agree wholeheartedly. And you are right: these subtleties are crucial.

I also commend you on your attempts to deal with two very complex, separate yet in many ways connected, issues. You are right that they will definitely affect one another regardless of whether that is right or wrong. They are inextricably linked, given present conditions.

Although there are many calls to keep the issues separate and to treat them as separate entities (ie, in isolation from one another), that is for all practical purposes, impossible under the present circumstances.

A number of impending events now loom, some of which can materially affect the airline, depending upon their nature. The vote on the TA and its timing, the Keller List and its release, and Bid 0301, closing June 30th all are significant events, and which are all entertwined, whether we like it or not. At present, none of us know when those releases will occur, nor can we expect to predict the outcomes of any votes or strategies.

Those who's lives will be materially affected by these events are keenly aware of the ramifications of the various rulings and potential outcomes. Many others outside the airline are equally keenly aware and watching.

You have raised the topic and engaged the dialogue. Many have taken you to task, some quite harshly, for what has been posted. Yet none provide alternative views or solid evidence to the contrary. A chorus of dismissal does not address the original discussion points.

In my opinion, rather than dismiss or marginalize such thoughts which have been expressed, an examination of the various modes of outcomes would be more profitable an enterprise, ranging from a completely benign ruling to its polar opposite and see what obtains.

It is our careers which are at stake here, and free discussion of possibilities is natural. In the end, when the list and award finally become public, we will know for certain, whether the discussion and the points raised were meaningful or irrelevant. In the end, most events go where they are going to go. The point of a forum such as this, is to clarify and broach points which are sometimes controversial.

In this case we are lucky I guess. Very soon, there will be an answer to the commentary everyone has offered so far. And then, for better or for worse, the issues will likely end up on autopilot.

Don

[Don Hudson]

Neo;

Regarding your comments on the ACPA Negots Committee on another thread, I agree wholeheartedly. And you are right: these subtleties are crucial.

I also commend you on your attempts to deal with two very complex, separate yet in many ways connected, issues. You are right that they will definitely affect one another regardless of whether that is right or wrong. They are inextricably linked, given present conditions.

Although there are many calls to keep the issues separate and to treat them as separate entities (ie, in isolation from one another), that is for all practical purposes, impossible under the present circumstances.

A number of impending events now loom, some of which can materially affect the airline, depending upon their nature. The vote on the TA and its timing, the Keller List and its release, and Bid 0301, closing June 30th all are significant events, and which are all entertwined, whether we like it or not. At present, none of us know when those releases will occur, nor can we expect to predict the outcomes of any votes or strategies.

Those who's lives will be materially affected by these events are keenly aware of the ramifications of the various rulings and potential outcomes. Many others outside the airline are equally keenly aware and watching.

You have raised the topic and engaged the dialogue. Many have taken you to task, some quite harshly, for what has been posted. Yet none provide alternative views or solid evidence to the contrary. A chorus of dismissal does not address the original discussion points.

In my opinion, rather than dismiss or marginalize such thoughts which have been expressed, an examination of the various modes of outcomes would be more profitable an enterprise, ranging from a completely benign ruling to its polar opposite and see what obtains.

It is our careers which are at stake here, and free discussion of possibilities is natural. In the end, when the list and award finally become public, we will know for certain, whether the discussion and the points raised were meaningful or irrelevant. In the end, most events go where they are going to go. The point of a forum such as this, is to clarify and broach points which are sometimes controversial.

In this case we are lucky I guess. Very soon, there will be an answer to the commentary everyone has offered so far. And then, for better or for worse, the issues will likely end up on autopilot.

Don

[Mitch Cronin]

Hi Don,

Would I be correct in assuming this means you also don't think liquidation is the result of turning down the t/a?

It seems to me that all these otherwise crucial subtleties are somewhat moot when faced with the rather simple choice of, employer fails, or employer survives.

I suppose if someone has been less than honest, and these concessionary agreements are not necessary for the company's survival, all the rest changes too. From all I've seen and heard however, I'm inclined to think your equipment bid and seniority numbers and arguments over who flys what aircraft are all for not without an acceptance of the t/a.

....mind you, I have swallowed nonsense before.... but I think it takes a wealthy gambler to stay in this hand, and I'm not it. My cards aren't so hot and like many of us, I can't afford to lose.

Cheers,

Mitch

[Don Hudson]

Mitch;

Re "My cards aren't so hot and like many of us, I can't afford to lose."

Many now walking out the door have young children, mortgages, perhaps older parents, young adults in university (unbelievably expensive I am finding out!) and few places to hie to.

In situations where people have elected to exchange their trips around the sun for a salary, very few plan for an immediate, pain-free release from such a system and instead very swiftly become enmeshed in a world of debt and obligation. It is a rare employee who can actually walk out one day and not look back.

While it is not impossible, the hardships visited upon families who are just trying to survive (which in this society means acceptable housing, good food, accessible healthcare, education/training, decent working conditions, retirement-care) leave precious little resources after the "user-pay" concept is finished with wage-earners. The broader societal forces are significant as workers lose more and more ground. Again in very broad terms, no wonder people are spring-loaded to the "angry" position.

Returning to our situation at AC, I expect that inability to simply walk will be at the core of everyone's intended response to their changing fortunes at AC. This is a fine company with fine employees but it is struggling with forces which its history and size have brought it great difficulties in a time when nimbleness, lightness of foot and spartan approaches to service and wages alike are the "local" model.

In pursuing a short rabbit-trail, I predict people will tire of such bread-and-butter "models" and, when the business cycle reverses as it inevitably will, parsimony (not used pejoratively here but descriptively) will give way to a fuller service and we, and perhaps other competitors will pick up on that trend. That is most decidely not the model that is broken here, but that metaphor has served certain purposes not altogether to do with employees. Air Canada is not so much a dinosaur, as some have harshly and one-dimensionally observed, but is perhaps an anachronism in the process of change. One thing is certain: Predictions of demise, as predictions of success, are a mug's game. We simply have to do our individual best.

Re "Would I be correct in assuming this means you also don't think liquidation is the result of turning down the t/a?"

Whether I "believe" liquidation would be an "inevitable" result of the failure of any agreement is largely academic. "Betting and touting" is highly inappropriate and at best improbable in such a high-stakes situation where rolling dice can be very dangerous. I prefer quiet reflection and independant decision-making. Public commentary often differs from private behaviour where the rubber meets the road.

What I do believe in however, is in assessing to the best on one's ability the various forces at work and coming to a long-term conclusion rather than a gut-reaction. In such volatile circumstances however, the employees who's careers are threatened, already terminated, outsourced or redundant may be forgiven if rationality does not always carry the day. We witnessed this here last week and I suspect that if the rumours discussed here and elsewhere do actually come to pass, we may assume a similar response would occur. However in such times as these, trying to predict what can happen is impossible.

I think in these discussions and in assessing information, one must be more open than usual, for this is not a casual conversation...Not at all.

Our own circumstances have 3 perhaps-momentous events pending: The presentation of the TA, the presentation of the Keller Award, and the closing of our Equipment Bid, this last being a crucial event for pilots even in normal times, but which now weighs extremely heavily on all of us because of these closely-related forces and because 317 of our group have been furloughed into a disastrous job-market for pilots.

Another short rabbit-trail, but related to the issues at hand, and issues which will unfold in the next few weeks... :

Few outside the profession of "airline pilot" have exhibited even a modicum of understanding of a pilot's life or the factors which motivate pilots. I am here not begging for New Age Sensitivities or other such pop-psychobabble and one certainly expects absolutely no sympathy these days.

But one might reasonably expect forebearance or at the very least, silence, in the absence of any comprehension of why seniority issues, job issues, who-does-the-work issues and contractual issues energize flight crews so strongly. Clearly however, that has never been an inhibition.

The usual collage of "experts-with-titles" who pronounce from afar their academic views on our profession for most (though not all, in my experience) of the media to parrot and for all and sundry to assume what is said is the truth, do little to assist true understanding of why some issues take off like a roman candle and others simply slide by without comment. Its always been the way but again in times such as these, its particularly frustrating to see widespread misapprehension. A few writers truly attempt an understanding and often call those within the industry for a broader understanding, but the "experts" never call.

The next few weeks carry enormous importance for us all. Many forces, some strongly opposed, are at work, most of which we employees do not know about or have access to, for the stakes are as high as they have ever been in our industry.

I desire here to flesh out some of these forces which are largely beyond the control of those who are in the lead in this sad affair. It is my deepest, most fervent hope as I know it is of all employees, that those in charge of our futures and our fortunes strive for balanced and reasonable solutions, keeping in mind that events in these situations swiftly grow a life of their own. I am at once fearful and hopeful (with emphasis on the latter!) and I know I am not at all alone in my thoughts.

This post has droned on long enough.

kind regards as always Mitch...

Don

[Mitch Cronin]

Don, you can drone on better than most of us, and probably most of us appreciate it! I know I do.

"one might reasonably expect forebearance or at the very least, silence"

K.O., you'll all get forebearance from me, but I can't promise silence. [grin] ... And I know from experience you'll offer me the same.

All of this is "close to home" for all of us, and we've all got our thoughts. Some of us can't keep those thoughts to ourselves. [sheepish grin] I share your hopes and fears.

It occurs to me that whatever the outcome, the last few years has been rewarding and I've learned much from my associations with folks both here and at work. Thanks to all of you for that.

Cheers,

Mitch