Guest sandfly Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 What do these people have in common? Gallagher Feller Teplitsky Picher Monroe Mitchnick Keller All of these arbitrators have listened to pilots claim that somehow they are entitled to something better than the other group. Claims like: 1: We bought you. 2: You were going broke. 3: We had bigger airplanes. 4: Our wide bodies are wider than yours. 5: I have more experience. 6: I have expectations. And the list is endless. The result is that pilots have suffered a great deal more damage to their security and careers from fellow pilots than they ever did from Airline Management. Would ACPA be bidding against Jazz (ALPA) for the 110 seat aircraft if they had not trashed Picher? Seniority = TIME PUT IN. We may not like where some of our fellow pilots have put in their time but the alternative is what we are going through now and are destined to repeat. When all pilots figure this out we will have won 90% of the battle It is too late now to fix this mess. I can only hope that the next generation of Airline Pilots figure this out and spend “merger assessment” on more productive issues, like their public image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shamus Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 My compliments on your post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Giving DOH to everyone in this particular case would catapalt A320 and B737 FOs into captain's seats on those same airplanes- at the expense of the people already there and those in the queue. How would you address that windfall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest QFE Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 How would you address that windfall? Simple. There would be no bumping and new positions would be bid. The people in queue would still be where they belong until they too could hold a Captain's position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Hmmmm... well, let me state my own selfish concerns. I'm about three-quarters of the way down the A320C list. I was hired as one of the "243" in the '80s. I was awarded my seat before the merger. If I get to keep my seat despite the current down-sizing, I'd like to continue progressing towards better flying and better vacation. Using a list that approaches DOH will place another 4 or 500 pilots in front of me. I will stagnate for a very long time. Conversely, my DOH counterparts at CAIL were/still are A320 FOs (through no fault of their own.) A DOH (or similar) list will allow them to bypass the rest of the right seats and several hundred red pilots. How is it fair that they gain this tremendous advantage? The goal of any merger is supposed to be to preserve pre-merger pay and working conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shamus Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Ever consider that this may not be about YOU? A long time ago, a little personal sacrifice might have lead to a decent life for all pilots. Damn I forgot, this is about YOU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I tried to point out only one example of why the original AC pilots believe a list resembling DOH would be unfair. I used my own case because that is the point on the list where the two pre-merger situations become extreme. I have made and I continue to make sacrifices for the common good, but that does not mean that I can't stick up for my own interests. The personal sacrifices should be spread evenly across all parties, not lumped up on the shoulders of a few. BTW, since we're on the subject, what seniority sacrifices have you made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shamus Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Odd that you should ask. But as a matter of fact, two seniority mergers - both based on DOH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Really? Congratulations. However, unique problems usually require unique solutions and one size doesn't fit all. In the case of the AC-CAIL merger, even Lordon, chief of the CIRB, agreed that DOH was not fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Garneau Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 "why the original AC pilots believe a list resembling DOH would be unfair." MCDU Why is that, MCDU? Is it because the OAC are better and/or AC was in such great financial shape to acquire CAIL? I don't mean to scream, but WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS MERGER OR ANY OTHER! You have the same license as I have, are much younger, and your poop doesn't smell any better than mine. I have a DOH of 1973 and ride the half point of the A320 in Toronto, figure that out. PG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 "BTW, since we're on the subject, what seniority sacrifices have you made?" Speaking of standing in que...You have my job! Now, how's that for sacrifice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerun Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 What were you holding in 1999 and a t what level? Were you hired by CP or one of the other original airlines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywud Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 MCDU, You don’t seem to get the predicament you are in now. Each and every one of your posts includes the reference of a ‘windfall gain’- an old cliché from the Picher era. Yes, Picher offered the regional pilots a windfall gain didn’t it? Sadly, even Picher doesn’t matter any more. From reading these posts, I can only conclude there are still some ACPA pilots that believe that there is more room for maneuvering at the negotiating table; that the battle can still be won. Sorry to have to inform you, but not only is the battle over, the ‘Nuke’ has been dropped, and all Air Canada employees are now waiting for the fallout. You can play it smart, and live for another day, or you can continue on your path to self-destruction – all because you can’t accept the fact that, yes you too, are going to have your career path temporarily set back. I don’t mean to come across as unsympathetic, but you really need to reflect on what is going on, and deal with it. There will likely be an outcome that you don’t like; a) Company closure, or Seniority displacement. These are the sad facts that occur when a Company goes bankrupt, or hopefully, emerge from bankruptcy. It is beyond your control, the control of the ex-CAI, or the JAZZ pilots. You are all on the same side believe it or not. Remember that when the dust settles and you are flying with the guy next to you, what ever seat that may be in. Good luck to you. Sincerely, Colin Forrest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 I was talking about the Keller award, not the TA. The two are separate issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Pierre, I think I've answered that completely in a couple other posts. Be reasonable. You know it has nothing to do with "better", age, licensing or feces. To summarize- the merger's goal was to preserve as much as possible- pre-merger pay and working condtions. Giving DOH to your side would have greatly increased your place on the equipment list. My DOH was late '80s, pre-merger that made me an A320 captain. The same DOH at CAIL brought one to the right seat of the A320. The disparity isn't my fault or yours, but it exists and must be recognized. I keep asking the same question but nobody can explain to me how it would be fair to catapult blue pilots up the equipment list at the expense of the red side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywud Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 MCDU, I agree the two are completely separate issues, however there seems to be several posters on this forum that are attempting to link the two by claiming that the Keller award must meet their ‘career expectations’ and contain no ‘windfall gains’ before they will give their thumbs up to the TA. The TA is ready now; fellow employees are looking at you to do the right thing - Help save the Company. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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