Kip Powick Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 A Little Theory… Much has been, and will be written about the “leaked” pilot proposition from AC management to ACPA. Group A is voicing, with some restraint, that it might do well for everyone to remember that a lesser paying job is better than no job. There are those in Group B that are advocating ”No way” let the demon airline die, I don’t/will not /never agree to the proposal.” Their anger is directed toward those in the crystal palace in Montreal and feel that “liquidation” is the only way employees can show their resolve. Could it be that those in Group B know, that based on rumors/etc. and with cut backs etc. they will be “gone” no matter what, and feel that if their hopes and dreams are shattered, why not loudly advocate liquidation for everyone….Apparently misery loves company and it is no fun going out the door alone. It’s all numbers, ladies and gentlemen; numbers, and if by some quirk of fate you don’t have the right number you may be gone. I know you counted on your job to fill that human need called “work” and perhaps you aspired for a bright aviation career nurtured in the bosom of AC, but in the flying game, like any profession…nothing is cast in concrete. The aviation industry worldwide is like salt water….good to swim in…but hard to swallow. Good Luck to all. ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I think you've nailed it Kip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Here's a thought. It dosen't matter if group A or group B wins the 'vote' on the company proposal. First off - it is NOT a negoting proposal. Second - if the unions say 'no thanks' then does not the company just take the package to the judge? And third - would not the judge, if he feels it would sastify the CCAA just "make it so"? All this ranting and raving is of no use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CleardecksforACTION! Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 So you guys think that someone would rather the company be liquidated than take a furlough? That doesn't compute... especially when one considers the guarantee of a recall thru retirements. Cheerio! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Kip, There is group C which prefers an actual official proposal in which to consider, before measuring out rope. John S. [From YLW?..] 'Make it so?' You mean like tomorrow you work for nothing, a little angel dust, a tap of the magic wand and voila, it is so? Seriously, I don't get it, please expand. BTW, in principal, and as the rumour spins, there is no negotiating so a vote DOES matter. I agree that ranting and raving is a waste of time, it’s in the pipeline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 What's in this proposal for anybody kip? The senior guys lose their pensions and take a 40% paycut, the junior guys lose their jobs, the new junior guys go from making 90K as 320 F/O's to 45K as RP's. Who really wins? The 320 captains will be making less than what Clive said a WJ captain earns on the 737...much less. Crappy layover hotels, &%$@!ty per diems and a lousy pension and you work for a loser company that will be back in 12 months looking for more. WJ will still beat us. They have a superior culture. AC will have a demoralized group that hate their leader and hate their jobs. I'd rather work for WJ at the very least Clive knows how to treat his people. If you are going to work for this kind of money you might as well work for a winner. Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrr Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 You mean like tomorrow you work for nothing, a little angel dust, a tap of the magic wand and voila, it is so? No, what I mean is that if the employee groups don't agree on what the company says it 'needs' to move forward with their recovery plan then the judge will just impose something. That 'something' may or may not be what the company has proposed to the various unions. Also, it would appear that the highest paid group is going to take the biggest cut. (Talking union, I don't know about management.) PS. it's YVR, not YLW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Wrong John S, was a bit of a long shot I suppose. anyway, Ok, so following that logic: The judge ‘could’ just say AC employees work for free, likely wouldn’t, but could, following your logic. Even in Canada, I doubt the judge could tell me what I will work for, get it yet?.. Not even Jean has that power. Dependant on what Farley is attempting to accomplish, and that is one of the great unknowns, he should be very very careful assuming what he has been told that what “he” wants is a viable AC. If, as some believe, Farley is nothing more than a legally safe extension of the government’s arm, and the government’s new vision is an unencumbered AC, where employees take the fall for the challenges that currently besiege us, then he should be very very careful. Again, following your logic, you could theoretically line up the IAM, the CAW and CUPE, have them ready to go and if the pilots say no, the plane ain’t goin. Shut it down and start over? Still need pilots and ACPA will be instrumental in any new AC. Anyone remotely interested should count on that as well. I hope nobody out there with the power to do so, underestimates the feeling of the Air Canada pilot group. But then again, what the hell do I know?.. One small aside, between you and I, I would be very surprised to see the pilots give even a half percent more than any other group and an honest look into the past and present practices of the pilot union will offer any interested, many answers as to why that is. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 How could ACPA play a significant role in a "new" AC if there is no AC? If AC is liquidated, that is it! How quickly could someone cobble up the aircraft and re-launch? Your guess is as good as mine. How much will that person pay the pilots? Above market? In your dreams. Remember, there are no successor rights after a liquidation. In fact, there is no guarantee that a company can, will, must rise after liquidation. An individual would have to convince investors, a bank, GE Capital, you name it that they have the right cost structure to compete. To the folks with the $$$ that means low cost, cheap, few benefits. This seems to be the one chance we can all salvage a significant part of what we value -- rewarding jobs that we enjoy -- if we let this opportunity (and it could well be the last one) slip through our fingers, we will have only ourselves to blame. Judge or no judge, employees at UA, USAirways and American have all accepted equally large or even larger reductions in compensation. In fact, not a single one of those agreements had to be imposed by a judge -- they all (grudgingly) agreed. What makes AC different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Airmail, Again, I must be quick, sorry. My premise stems from my belief that Canada NEEDS an airline, there are no others that could, or would [Government taxes and restrictions included] provide that service, yet. Besides, economy aside, who will pay for the new terminals in VR YZ EG WG UL OW etc? Who will pay for TNew for Nav Can infrastructure [AC is a few months in arrears and Nav Can hikes its fees 8% was it?] etc etc?.. I may very well be way out to lunch, though I doubt it. So, that is where I am coming from. As for ACPA. ACPA and AC are not affiliated of course. ACPA represents the largest number of pilots in Canada and will continue to do so for some time after, if, Air Canada closes its doors. Again, I believe, that economic and political pressure will beat out any type of quick resurrection of AC and I think you will see ACPA and ALPA on the same page on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 ACPA and ALPA on the same page? Are you joking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 care to expand?.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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