Guest Labtec Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I say liquidate. Milton et al have no plan. They keep saying the business model is broken and yet their solution is to run the operation the same and simply exact the profits for the shareholders on the backs of the employees. The wage cuts in the pilot ranks are far in excess of 15% when you look at the details. For some pilots it will be more than 40%!!! Whether you believe this or not usually depends upon which group you belong to, but the pilots at Air Canada are not over paid. The unlicenced labour is over paid. F/A's Agents and Rampies all earn exhoribitant salaries by any outside measure. Should an F/A or agent earn more than a nurse? I don't think so. There are tow crews in YYZ that earned nearly 100K last year towing airplanes from the Hangar to the gate. That's more than the mechanics for heavens sake. We have I/C flight attendants that earn 60k and some on the wide body fleet earn 75K. That's more than some pilots at the company. I say shut the door and lets start over. The new airline will still require pilots and we can start fresh on the unlicenced side and pay Jetsgo wages to those people. If its a race to the bottom then lets be serious about it. The days of earning 72K to load bags or 65K to hand out peanuts are over. You want wages down then lets bring them down. 100K for a captain, 50 for an FO, 25K for an F/A and 10 bucks an hour for an agent and a rampie. No more "me too" clauses. I think the other unions and management ought to hitch up to ACPA's current proposed reduction and "me too" themselves the same percentage cut as us. We can all buy a really big house in the country and live in an airline commune cause no one will be able to afford a home. I am fed up. I am voting no to this proposal and I am fully prepared to get out and do something else if we liquidate. Enough is enough. Let's do the honouable thing and shut her down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest q650 Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I agree, shut her down including all the subsidiaries. I'd rather start over than have my union reps acting like prostitutes "just to try to save the still broken model". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Actually, the subsidiaries are all under separate filings. To kinda' quote RM in his speech yesterday, he mentioned: forming separate brands from within, transition over and 'pull the plug' on the legacy carrier....'the cultural change will follow'. That’s why I think they have three separate CCAA filings. IMO you're not to far off on the master plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Yes it seems, given your opinion, liquidation is more and more likely the outcome. But I have to ask what did you think was going to the Co.'s position (if infact what has been published here is the Co's position)??? US Airways, American, UAL and Continental pilots before them all gave back more at a higher price than what we see here. I suspect that a large part of your rant was just to blow off steam. If so, this is as good a place as any. So go ahead and have a good cry. What will be left for you is still far better than the 350 a week take home you'll make starting over at WestJet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchman Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I like George's approach, below. Let's face it, if AC liquidates, any resulting jobs at the existing carriers or any new carrier will pay less than what is being offered, come with 2 weeks of vacation and no stats, work the same number of hours (or more) than the "leaked" proposal and won't have any pension. So if you can't live with what might be left, then the least you can do is leave it for those who think it's worth saving rather than taking the scorched earth approach. ... if for no better reason than it will probably mean at least a couple more years at higher pay, better working conditions and better benefits than the vast majority of us could get anywhere else, in aviation or out. And if we can just convince the negative influence (present company included) to leave or get an attitude adjustment, those who really believe that they can turn this airline around just might have a chance to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Hi Kal, You may be right, who knows for sure. To ”US Airways, American, UAL and Continental pilots before them all gave back more at a higher price than what we see here.” Not that it really has much bearing on our outcome but please, start the comparisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 After reading what the company expects all of us to give up, i am left with no other choice but to say , liquidate, I just can not see my self working till I am sixty only to end up with a pension that will force my pallet to develop a taste for cat food, because with the new pesion, that is all and AME will be able to afford, and we are not being hit as hard as you fly guys.Time for a common front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CleardecksforACTION! Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Well then Robert, why wouldn't you accept, then look for a new job? If you're liquidated, you'll be looking along with everybody else in your field, which means you may not be able to get another job or that the offers will be low-ball because of the supply glut. At least if the company cotinues albeit with a &%$@!tier (sp?) contract, you would be in a far smaller, therefore advantageous position. That is unless you are hanging your hat on a major gov't intervention/bailout?... A dangerous game IMO Cheerio! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchman Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I am simply amazed at how much credit is being given to rumour. Why are people making life-changing decisions based on speculation around WRONG and INCOMPLETE information? If you're so worried about eating cat food, you had better get some good financial information about the difference in how much money you'll have at a reduced pension (remember the phrase "WRONG information") vs just getting your contributions (plus some interest) back upon liquidation. Again, I must ask, why would you insist on liquidation? Just leave if you don't like what's left standing. The result is the same for you in either scenario... ironically, ultimately better for you financially if you leave the company intact when you leave. AND, you have a much better chance at getting a job out there in the real world if you're not standing in line with 30,000 other people who are now out of a job because you just decided to give up. I would recommend that everyone take a big step back and have a long, good look at the chess board of their own life because this situation is not a one move game that should be played with emotion and bad information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ozanne Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I would agree to 20% if all other unions were taking 20%. I will vote no if we are asked to take 15% while other groups take 10%. How does A/C save money transfering the RJs to Jazz? They would have to layoff or retrain all the RJ pilots at A/C. Then turn around and train new RJ pilots at Jazz. How do the wages on the RJ compare between Jazz and A/C? I was under the impression that Jazz was well paid with a very strict contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Oneworld Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I can't understand the logic of actually wanting to liquidate the company and thinking that the new prospects will be so much better. Pay scale will be minimal, all the years of experience will now count for nothing, 2 weeks vacation etc......... "The new airline will still require pilots and we can start fresh on the unlicenced side and pay Jetsgo wages to those people." If you want Jetsgo wages, they also come with a bond for pilots of 30k each but their is nothing to stop someone from asking for more bond money. This trend to have Jetsgo type pay scales is crazy. I previously worked for C3 and would have rather taken a pay cut then be on the unemployment line in an oversaturated market. Good luck to you all and I hope that the correct decision are made whatever they may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CleardecksforACTION! Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Will that make you feel better? I hope that warm fuzzy feeling stays with you for a long long time, because that's how long your decision will affect you if enough like-minded people do the same. A huge group of smug, self-satisfied (but unemployed) airline folk.Bravo!... Oh and by the way, I wouldn't count on any new or existing organization rolling out the welcome mat to an employee group that succeeded in dragging their company down for the stated reasons (however right they may be). You know, one can't always win in life, and life isn't always fair. It's what it is. Have you considered "Back away, live to fight another day?" or how about come up with a counter-proposal that works for all? How would pulling the plug on your job make your life better? Must you fall on your sword for idealism? Getting screwed over is never enjoyable, but it becomes easier to deal with as experience with it is gained... Cheerio! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest QTip Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Being part of the solution is better than being part of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Orange Gloves Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. “The unlicenced labour is over paid. F/A's Agents and Rampies all earn exhoribitant salaries by any outside measure. Should an F/A or agent earn more than a nurse?” That’s easy… they don't. “There are tow crews in YYZ that earned nearly 100K last year towing airplanes from the Hangar to the gate.” Total BS. A top pay Station Attendant with 20 years longevity and top shift premium makes $23.67 an hour. That comes out to $49223.60 a year. If he works the maximum allowed overtime (104 hr/3 month) and maximized the double time calculation, this would be another $18273.24 for the year. Total now is $67496.84. Nearly 100K! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Glad you posted that Orange Gloves: I've seen this number posted before....and I just shake my head.By the way you forgot to mention that the fellow that does max out his O/T does not have a life and that he is also spending a lot more hours at work to TRY and get closer to that 100G mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Guess again Inchman,we have a writen notice on our bullitin board outlining everything the company is demanding, 10% reduction in pay, right to impliment whatever shift the company deems required to operate A week reduction in vacation pension set at 1.45 instead of 1.75 loss of 2 stat holidays no more paid lunch periods Lay off not by seniority the list goes on and on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cargo Agent Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Where did it come from? I can't find anything official anywhere. Is it on company letterhead or IAM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 We had a negots rep give us the info, as you know, there is a gag order. To add to the previous list, we will not be paid for our lunch break anymore, so your pay will be based on 37.5 hours a week, coupled with the 10% wage cut,it works out to a 15% wage cut, it is the little things that they do not tell you that add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 Well Action, that is in the process, unlike most pilots, as an AME my options are not restricted to aviation, here in Ontario, if you possess an AME it is counted as time credited to be able to write you Millwright certificate, no apprenticeship required, there are other options, welding (specialized) is another option, as part of my trade schooling , I had to become proficient at TIG welding, so as I stated the options are there and are being considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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