dragon Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Two different stories, [as usual] one has to be CR@P. Has AC surrendered all the financial documentation that legal council for the AC unions have requested, prior to any meaningful discussion towards solution Or, Are our AC Executives simply interesting in preening for the judge and the media and resisting meaningful cooperation with the unions and the employees? Just the facts please, no sugar, . . . sugar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Dragon : Just goes back to what I said yesterday in a post....looks a lot like AC wants to negotiate through the media. Just my Two cents Frosty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 It's not clear why you are asking me this question. I'm far from the bargaining. You would get a lot more info than I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 7, 2003 Author Share Posted May 7, 2003 dagger and frosty.. I get info from ACPA, very difficult to verify, or balance perhaps sometimes, especially as so far at least, most sensitive material has either been edited or withheld all together. I read the company’s side in newspapers and public documents, again, obviously edited, withheld or disseminated in order to assist in effecting an agenda. I suppose this is a never ending challenge, who and what to believe, especially difficult when so little real intel is available to the majority involved .. I thought that perhaps you may have had or heard some information from the other side of the table which you could share . . . Frosty, I’ll wait for your note That’s all. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 I would note, however, that if management is stonewalling, the unions are playing right into its hands. Until a union acknowledges the seriousness of the situation, I doubt that management would believe in the likely success of bargaining. A mediator may be needed. Judge Farley may have to send someone into the fray to jumpstart the process. One can negotiate compromise arrangements here, but so long as certain union leaders (Fane, Sachs and Ritchie come to mind) keep denying the seriousness of the situation, they play right into management's hands. I suspect both sides would rather have an imposed deal - by the judge or an arbitrator. Management can then tell the creditors they didn't give up the ship, and the unions can blame the judge and say that a deal is being forced on them kicking and screaming. Meanwhile, the unions are making a huge brouhaha over process, rather than substance. If you don't think the company is in serious manure, just wait for the April traffic numbers. We all know that the planes are flying around empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 Here is a sample of what I cite as the disconnect in these situation. It happens to relate to Northwest, one of its unions, and the invocation by management of force majeure in their labor contract because of SARS. The quote is from a union press release. "Northwest traffic dropped 13 percent in April compared to a year earlier, with a 24.7 percent decline in transpacific traffic. The airline has provided no data on the specific impact of the SARS threat, yet is attributing these drops to SARS." How else would you lose 25% of your Pacific traffic in the month of 2003? Bad Karma? What else does the union want? Interviews with people who cancelled Transpacific flights to find out why they cancelled? What else is management supposed to come up with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fax Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 Why? Why isn't Air Canada putting ALL the cards on the table & leveling with it's employees? You can try and deflect....but it comes down to a simple matter of TRUST. Don't cloud the issue. Milton has to deal straight-up. If he can't at this point.......he's gotta go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 7, 2003 Author Share Posted May 7, 2003 I really am time sensitive tonight, after this I gotta go; Serious negotiations – exactly what we need – can only begin with full disclosure, no secrets, agreed? Perhaps, as in past examples, SAU interpretation 2000, CRA wetlease and there are more, full disclosure by the company may have saved not only millions of dollars, saved a lot of time, encouraged some team spirit and planted a seed of accountability in the minds of the pilots. A seed, early on that by now could have borne fruit. Sadly that is not the case, as good fortune has not followed Robert into and out of, these mediation / arbitration episodes. I would not suspect Robert and Calin would list arbitration as the first choice when dealing with pilots, especially when our productivity and level of cooperation are clearly identified and displayed. I could be wrong?.. Finally, nobody I know of disputes that Air Canada finds itself in dire financial condition, however, nobody knows exactly how dire, save for RM. CR and JF. The other important factor to remember is that though employees and unions want to help, they do not trust the establishment, again, examples abound to support that feeling. I wish they would realize that and I wish RM would realize that. RM is famous for throwing big numbers around, his credibility is non-existent and sadly, people are not generally in support of a combination like that. Air Canada or real life.. ACPA leaders and members WANT to work with Robert and Calin, they really I believe. So far they, ALL of them, have not and the results are in. Time has come to start, the results of that would be the results we all imagine.. this requires a new relationship, it begins with full disclosure and it begins with trust. – otherwise, we’re all screwed. Gotta go, sorry for the rush, hope you get my drift. dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchman Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 Everybody seems to be caught up so much in this "open books" thing. The numbers are there. Compare this year to last year to the year before. Times are tough and the airline is losing money. If it weren't the major shareholders and creditors would be screaming blue murder and the judge would have dismissed the filing. So here are the possible scenarios. 1. The company is in such bad shape that it won't come out of this and it's only a matter of time till the doors close. 2. The company is in a position to come out of this if it gets its costs down quickly. If 1 is true, delaying the inevitable cuts will only cut down on the amount of time till the doors close. So we'll be making a bit more for a shorter period until we make nothing. Net take-home pay... about the same. If 2 is true and we keep delaying, it is possible that we will hit the point of no return and 2 will turn into 1 and the company will go down the tubes anyway. To me, it seems that delaying cuts is the most dangerous course of action in the current circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 I am part of AC management. Yesterday, for the first time, our group saw the presentation that was given to all Union Leaders, by our Execs, several weeks ago. Prior to yesterday, we all new what the issues at hand were. Yesterday's presentation just drove the message home with some detailed and powerful figures. I am tired of the conspiracy theorists out there who will always believe that "there's something behind these numbers". It is interesting to see that the issue of trust (lack thereof) is repeatedly brought up. I clearly remember reading that the CAW Leaders refused to let their members see what Management was proposing on the grounds that "it will shock our members". And you want full openness (sp?) from Management!!! Whatever happened to democracy and the right to know what is in store for the future of each and every single CAW member (and their respective families). I wonder how it must feel like to pay exorbitant union dues only to be a victim of censorship on matters that will definitely impact my livelihood. Talk about lack of trust and openness. Read this morning's paper and you will see that we are out of cash. We now have to resort to the DIP financing and we still have unions posturing. I lost a couple of good friends on Monday. Guys who were the only "bread-winners" for their families. I guess you can say that they did not have the luxury of hiding behind their Union leaders and having their respective jobs protected by said leaders. What will it take do get the Union leaders on side???? A complete and unequivocal shut down of AC. Remember...some said it would be preferable to wait for CCAA. Well folks..we are there now and we officially have no more money left. This is no laughing matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chiselcharter Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 An example would be the billions robert wanted after 911, even the government didn't fall for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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