Guest GDR Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Air Canada asks employees for 10% wage cut Last Updated Fri, 02 May 2003 17:45:58 MONTREAL - Air Canada (TSX:AC) wants all its 40,000 employees except the most poorly-paid to take a 10 per cent pay cut for 60 days while it negotiates new contracts with its unions. The airline, which is in bankruptcy protection, made the request in a conference call with the carriers' unions on Friday, said Gary Fane, the Canadian Auto Workers' director of transportation. He said the unions were considering the idea. An Air Canada spokeswoman said that the proposal applies to all the carrier's employees, except those making less than $25,000 a year. If accepted, it will save the airline cash while it negotiates permanent labour cost reductions. That has been a key issue for the company. On Thursday, it told the unions it needs $770 million worth of concessions, up from $650 million in February. FROM MAY 1, 2003: Air Canada seeking more labour concessions from unions The CAW represents 9,500 passenger agents. Other unions represent machinists, flight attendants and pilots. While the airline pitched the wage cut, the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers demonstrated in Montreal against the 22 per cent wage cut the airline wants. The airline's demands have gone too far, representatives of the 15,000-member union said. Air Canada employees have already been making concessions for years, said Union spokesman Marcel St-Jean. "With many, many [cost-saving] programs we've tried to help them for the past ten years, and it didn't go anywhere," he said. Written by CBC News Online staff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipped Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Wages cuts are not going to save Air Canada wheather temporary or permanent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 "Air Canada employees have already been making concessions for years, said Union spokesman Marcel St-Jean." It would be interesting to understand what these "concessions" are that the IAM have been making. Unless I'm mistaken, it seems to me that IAMAW employees have taken and continue to take home their full pay, have not accepted or offered any changes to work rules or productivity and have generally fared much, much better than their counterparts in the US where many have had to accept massive cuts in wages and drastic changes in work rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimer V Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 I can see you don't know what your talking about,so i won't even consider a response 10% seems reasonable for now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Failure to give wage cuts are not going to save AC either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 I guess your failure to provide any substantive examples of these so-called "concessions" only proves my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dirtyredhat Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 I am just wondering if the request for June's DMM to be 70 hrs is equivalent to the 10% that 'everyone' else is being asked for? Or is there an additional 10% on top of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickle Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Indulge me please. What's a DMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimer V Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 As i said before you don't know what your talking about.You haven't proved anything . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 wages and benefits account for 27% of AC's expenses, but yet Milton and his cronies use the media to make it sound as though wages are the only expenses the company has.I suggest that Milton et al take a look at the other 73% of the problem before declaring war on its staff.Any one with the slightest business savy will tell you that your staff is your greatest asset, for some reason in aviation the management in these companies seem to think the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Maybe you can explain to me then, why is it that 1350 maintenance people have been let go, but to date not one single pilot,FA (those that were let go were called back).Once again maintenance takes the brunt.So I think your commenjt has jsut been proven invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Because your union did not want to negotiate other mitigation measures the way ACPA did with reduced costs. Should the company just pay these maintenance employees even when they're not needed? Give me a break! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Wow! What a rebutal! I wish I had your skill! Another non-answer! Brilliant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Where exactly have you been? Are you being serious? The ONLY AC stakeholders not to get paid are the creditors -- ie. the 73% of the problem. While the ONLY AC stakeholders who have not missed getting fully paid are the employees -- ie. 27% of the problem. Declaring war? Did your pay cheque or direct deposit not arrive on time? Were you unable to submit your medical or dental claim and did it not get reimbursed? Were your travel privileges cancelled? The answer to all 3 is no. Now go and ask any or all of the creditors whether they've been paid for work already performed or product already delivered. Then ask the creditors whether or not the company has indicated to them that they are ALL expected to take haircuts. Why is it that you think that the employees are the only ones being asked to contribute? Have you been stuck in a place where only the censored news from the IAM gets through? For your own sake, at least inform yourself. Educate yourself. It's all in the filings which are public documents available for all to see on the internet. These are documents which have been filed in a court of law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSkyGuy Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 So that's where Nav Canada's management got the idea from! I knew they were too stupid to come up with it themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 DMM: Designated Monthly Maximum - The number of hours a pilot may be blocked [worked]in one block month. Through a let to AC back in January 2000, ACPA agreed to 85 hours, flexing to 90, for the benefit of AC to assist with the overwhelming training required. As much as I hate to agree with Airmail [kidding,. . . .well, sort of kidding ], to assist AC as well as the junior members of ACPA, in 2002, the ACPA pilots have agreed to accept an across the board reduction to 70 hours, about an 18% reduction in the normal DMM of 85 hours, along with the accompanying loss of income. Is that a pay reduction? I'll let others debate that. Caveat: All numbers are close, offered with the 5th martini in one hand, no contract in the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Let's see now: The 73% : -Cut out promotions (Grand Prix, Air Canada Cup -Cut travel agent commissions -Not paying NavCda and Airports -Negotiating leases to current market rates -Laying off 600 managers -Returning A340-500s to Airbus -Reducing Aeroplan benefits -Charging more for Aeroplan points -Stiffing bondholders -Not paying some trade creditors -Selling one-third of Aeroplan and making plans to sell part of ACTS (stiffing shareholders) -Cancelling annual meeting -Cancelling print version of Horizons I'm not in Air Canada but it seems as if there are litterally hundreds if not thousands of cost-cutting measures being undertaken in the 72 percent. But God forbid someone talk about cutting the 28 percent. Hell, Full Pay to the Last Day. At first, the excuse was that the unions - and many of you - wanted others to take a haircut WITH you. Now that everyone is lining up for theirs, some of you are becoming very shy. Hell, a 10 precent cut for 60 days, what's that going to cost you after taxes you wouldn't have to pay? $300? $500? Most people face far worse in their lives, like loss of jobs, loss of careers. The merchants, restaurant owners, etc in this city are going to lose investments of a lifetime as their businesses go bust because of SARS. You're telling me that 10% is too much to save the best paying airline careers in the country? Of course, I know how this is going to end up. Either upon order of the judge, or upon threat of liquidation, you'll ante up, kicking and screaming all the way about the Socialist Liberals. Too bad some of you don't have the cahones to actually make the hard decision yourself. A 10 percent cut for 60 days. Oh boo hoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Hello again zipped, Where do you start? I am satisfied that management has initiated a fair lead, I am willing to follow that lead. You will be asked for more than 10% in a combination of pay and productivity gains in order to contribute to the security of both you and your family. Personally, though some would say I have no brain, seems like a no brainer to me. I vote yes. What’s your plan comrade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 DMM: Designated Monthly Maximum - The number of hours a pilot may be blocked [worked]in one block month. Through a let to AC back in January 2000, ACPA agreed to 85 hours, flexing to 90, for the benefit of AC to assist with the overwhelming amount of training required. As much as I hate to agree with Airmail [kidding,. . . .well, sort of kidding ], to assist AC as well as the junior members of ACPA, in 2002, the ACPA pilots have agreed to accept an across the board reduction to 70 hours, some even less for June, at least an 18% reduction in the normal DMM of 85 hours, along with the accompanying loss of income. Is that a pay reduction? I'll let others debate that. Caveat: All numbers are close, offered with the 5th martini in one hand, no contract in the other. Messages In This Thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 DMM: Designated Monthly Maximum - The number of hours a pilot may be blocked [worked]in one block month. Through a let to AC back in January 2000, ACPA agreed to 85 hours, flexing to 90, for the benefit of AC to assist with the overwhelming amount of training required. As much as I hate to agree with Airmail [kidding,. . . .well, sort of kidding ], to assist AC as well as the junior members of ACPA, in 2002, the ACPA pilots have agreed to accept an across the board reduction to 70 hours, some even less for June, at least an 18% reduction in the normal DMM of 85 hours, along with the accompanying loss of income. Is that a pay reduction? I'll let others debate that. Caveat: All numbers are close, offered with the 5th martini in one hand, no contract in the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Yes, employees are an important asset, but there is nothing to say that pay and compensation of an AC employee are set in stone, no matter how the business environment changes. I can't think of an airline employee in the world that isn't making some sacrifices. Either they are accepting cutbacks of one sort or another (or losing their jobs outright) or they accept that they have to share their employers' risk. It's not that AC has "declared war" on you, it's that it is patently clear that it can no longer afford to pay the highest wages in this country for services that are provided - safely, expertly and politely -at other airlines for less, sometimes a lot less. AC cannot force customers to pay expensive fares needed to keep your pay, benefits and working conditions absolutely intact. The fare structure that had supported your traditional wage and benefit structure is crumbling. The day of the $4000 Toronto-Vancouver round trip is coming to an end. The new benchmark, set by Westjet, is about $1000. And it doesn't matter if you have pretty flight attendants or serve caviar and champagne in economy. Most people won't pay $3000 more for the same five-hour trip, no matter how you pamper them. This is paradigm shift in buying habits. Accept it. AC cannot force aircraft manufacturers to sell it planes for half the price it sells to other large volume customers. It cannot force airports to charge it less than Westjet for rent, landing fees, etc, so it can pay you a lot more than Westjet pays its people. What the airline has offered is eminently fair. The principle enunciated before CCAA was cost savings achieved largely but not entirely through productivity gains - coupled with profit sharing. The airline world is a lot more volatile than it used to be. In many of the US restructurings, risk sharing in the form of profit sharing is becoming entrenched. If the airlines' financial fortunes rebound, so will those of the employees. Westjet has a similar risk sharing philosophy as do most discount carriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Boo hoo? You used to provide some thoughtful insight into the airline industry, but now resort to ridiculing a group of people who are pretty stressed, scared and in many cases confused. I am beginning to think that you are nothing more than a pimply faced computer geek with a business degree from Alqonquin college in Ottawa and way too much time on your hands. Isn't anybody else tired of this friggen' clown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 In the past, I too have thought that dagger had a tendency to both get personal as well as to end participation in a thread when it was clear that he/she had posted something inaccurate. Bye and large, I find dagger's contributions here, though admittedly biased toward AC, insightful and generally accurate. I believe you will find that to be the general feeling here, as it has come up before.. Boo hoo were two words in many in the post you identify. Do you generally agree or disagree with the spirit of that post and why? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Dagger: Are you responding to my post??? I happen to agree that the so-called 73% is being compromised and that so far, the only ones not to be compromised are the employees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cargo Agent Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Dagger, rail all you want about SOME here that don't seem to get it yet, but we are not all blind to what is going on. I personnally and those I talk with can accept the 10% cut, and understand that other changes will be needed. There will always be those that don't recognize the seriousness of the situation. Those are the ones wearing the Full Pay buttons. I think they are idiot's. Many of us will do what needs to be done. Hopefully, it will be enough. CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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