For Newgirl

[Mitch Cronin]

This deserves a thread of it's own....

Newgirl, so sorry to hear about the loss of your friend and coworker.  It's always especially sad to hear about someone so young leaving a family behind.  It sounds like he faced it with courage and humour though, and that video he made will be something his family will treasure.

My condolences.

Ditto that... Nicely put Jennifer.

[newgirl]

Thanks. In a small base , it affects everyone. Though the years we get to know the children, parents and even brothers and sisters of our workers. It truly was a family.

We have worked together for 20-30 years or more. We have hugged each other, sworn at each other , in some cases punched each other , partied together and cried together.

For many of the small bases 2005 is really the end of the Air Canada family as we knew it. So many OAC/CAW and OAC/IAM have chosen retirement packages.

In my mind this funeral of our co-worker also symbolized the demise of the AC family here. We will never be as close again. Pity.

[cp fa]

I know what you mean. We have deaths in the OCP family too, and some of my favourite OCP agents and flight attendants have also chosen to retire early. It's just not the same anymore.

[Mitch Cronin]

  For many of the small bases 2005 is really the end of the Air Canada family as we knew it. So many OAC/CAW and OAC/IAM have chosen retirement packages.

  In my mind this funeral of our co-worker also symbolized the demise of the AC family  here. We will never be as close again.  Pity.

Ok... I can't keep quiet....

Newgirl? Tell me how this sounds to you: For many of the small towns 2005 is really the end of the white society as we knew it. So many white men and white women have chosen to leave.

In my mind this funeral of our friend also symbolized the demise of the white society here. We will never be as close again. Pity.

See anything wrong with that?

Now what's the freaking difference?

Why'd ya have to lay out all that "OAC" scat??? Krikey! ... to think of the number of times we heard the phrase "get over it" in the beginning, and here, 5 years later, some of you STILL haven't gotten over it yourselves!

Excellent response Jennifer. Perfect.

[deicer]

So many OAC/CAW and OAC/IAM have chosen retirement packages.

 

Mitch,,,

I think that what she was trying to say, and didn't get it across properly, was that there have been a disproportionate number of OAC employees taking the packages, and retiring over the OCP employees.

I, personally see the same thing happening here in YYZ amongst my collegues in the IAM and the CAW.

I believe it has to do with pension choices early on in our respective careers. From the friends that I have, I see that the OAC employees are at a point where the packages are that extra incentive to get out the door, whereas for my OCP friends, they just haven't attained(for whatever choice) that point yet.

I also see it as being hard to say goodbye to friends that you have known longer, not as a shun to new friends.

I still offer that coffee and a chat one day, but remember, we won't always agree on everything, and that includes the OAC/OCP issue, BUT, I will always respect your opinion on it.

Sadly, it is an issue that won't go away until the last originals of both groups are dead, and then there will be other issues for people to fight over in it's place.

Just the nature of the beast, my friend.

Regards...

Iceman

[GDR]

Hi Jennifer and Mitch

Maybe I can give a different perspective here. I remember flying into the small bases in the maritimes when I was on the DC9. There was only about a dozen working on the base. In most cases it seemed that they would go out for a beer or whatever after work and it was kinda family like. They were almost inevitably a very tight little group. It is the same sense of commonality that I would get going out with a crew on an extended cycle except that they are living it every day for years.

All of a sudden the size of the base is doubled. The folks who used to be the competition are now working beside you and you are trying to sort out schedules and seniority etc. Maybe even some of the friends you have worked with are losing their jobs. Things have changed and most of us don't react all that well to change.

Over time things get sorted out and new families are forming but in the meantime people still are lamenting the sense of loss of the old one.

Of course the main point is that this is the case no matter which uniform you wore prior to the merger and I think that newgirl would agree with that.

[Guest rattler]

AEF & GDR, well stated.

It is hard to forget the good times and friends one has at a small base and the family simile is def. accurate.

[Mitch Cronin]

A big part of me is thinking I should have said nothing.... But I have a filter problem... someone said there's no filter between my thoughts and my mouth... if I think it, I'll say it... dunno if that's right or not, but this morning, I felt I couldn't avoid saying something.

Iceman... I understand the nature of the beast stuff... You're right. One of these days we'll do that coffee thing... maybe better (if after July 1 )

Greg, I can see what you're saying... I have notions of what's ideal in terms of how people should deal with this stuff, but perhaps I'm as guilty as anyone else of keeping the troubles happening?

....whatever.... I'd like to wake up one day and find everybody is happy.

[ccairspace]

....whatever.... I'd like to wake up one day and find everybody is happy. 

Hmmm... try dipping those new glasses of yours in rose coloured water.

Change always involves loss at some level and loss always results in grief. Everyone moves through the stages of grief in their own way and at their own pace. Some even get stuck part way through forever. And our own personalities frequently influence the outcome, as reflected in this quote:

Change has a considerable psychological impact on the human mind. To the fearful it is threatening because it means that things may get worse. To the hopeful it is encouraging because things may get better. To the confident it is inspiring because the challenge exists to make things better. -King Whitney Jr.

ccairspace

[GDR]

Greg, I can see what you're saying... I have notions of what's ideal in terms of how people should deal with this stuff, but perhaps I'm as guilty as anyone else of keeping the troubles happening?

....whatever.... I'd like to wake up one day and find everybody is happy.

Hi Mitch

The ideal is an impossible goal, but you've always been a part of the solution.

Cheers

Greg

[newgirl]

My intent was never to bring up the OAC/OCP differences.

My comment was that I have worked with him for 23 years unlike the OCP people who merged with us 5 years ago. Would anyone have the same type of feelings for someone they have only worked with for 5 years? I doubt it!

To us who were hired here 30 odd years ago it is sad to see the majority of us old timers retire this year. Air Canada mainline has been here since 1939. It is the end of an era. Jazz is now in charge of the base. So like Elvis , AC has left the building.

Mitch

I do think you have a big mouth but a soft heart ! Keep speaking up even when you think you shouldn't have. I may never agree with you but that is what this forum is about. Except for your comments on a small base , mine of which you know nothing! I do respect most of your comments otherwise.

To the rest of the posters Thanks for your kind thoughts.

[Mitch Cronin]

One of the guys I appreciate working with most is a guy I've only known for about 5 years.

...Though, like everyone else, he's a bit of an oddball, and our "relationship" is a bit odd.... In fact.... just last night, while we were finishing off some work on a 67 that was in need of some parts, he mooned me! That's right! the bugger figured he owed me one I guess?, so while he was about 30 ft high on one of our scissor lift gizmo's (which we call a "Selma" - and that was added just for him, since he complained last night that I call things "gizmos", "gadgets", and "hoo-doos" too often - where was I?... Ahhh yes, I was on the hangar floor... or rather, I was describing what I saw from the hangar floor... his payback!

..The bugger got me!

He was way the hell up on the Selma lift, looking at some static wicks (little hoo-doos that are mounted to trail from the trailing edges of things that fly, to help dissipate static electrical buildup) - Actually, I asked him later what he was up there for, but he wouldn't answer... I guessed he must have seen a static wick he didn't like and had gone to examine it more closely... I later found him hunting through the maintenance manual looking at static wicks and I asked him what he'd seen... the dog wouldn't tell me though, cause he hates it when I can tell him anything, for some reason, ...so he just answered "Nothing, nothing... everything's fine" I think he saw one that was different than the rest, and wanted to find out if it was a broken normal one, or a different one... and then, finding it different, he had to look in the books to see if it was legitimate... he's a good conscientious lad and I'd be perfectly content to send my kids on any machine he was looking after, but he just hates me to tell him anything , and he knew afterward that I could have told him the static wick was just fine, but he wouldn't ask me, and then, wouldn't tell me... he hated it when I guessed. -

...so there he is up on this Selma lift (I said that already, didn't I?)... and he calls over to get my attention, ...and when I look his way, he turns around and bends over while dropping his flippin' pants to show me his full moon!! I'm stunned! Stunned I tell ya! Of all the nerve! The absolute gall! The outrageous lack of respect! ... The... ....

... ahh hell, I deserved it. Ok Mikey, so we're even now, ya dog!

...

...Anyway, Newgirl... You're right of course, I know nothing of your base... but you know, I think one of the things I appreciate about Mike is that he never, ever, ever brings up any O vs X stuff. That's probably because he's almost neither one. Being very "junior" he didn't have much chance to develop any serious, previous sense of family at this workplace that the past 5 years hasn't outgrown.

I work closely and well with others, both O's and X's, including some I've worked with for 20 years... if they died (and some have), or retired (and more have), I'd miss most of them without looking for that X or O label.

I guess that's all that got me... You didn't need to say "OAC"... you could have covered it well with "worked with for years", or "25 yrs", "long time" "old friends" etc...

Persnickety cuss, ain't I? ... but "big mouth"? Opinionated, loose tongued, sez-what-he-thinks... I'd be kidding myself to argue with that sort of thing. I'm trying to improve though, if that's worth anything?

BTW, Nice quote CC, and thanks Greg.

Cheers,

Mitch

[cp fa]

Greg:

I do know what you mean about smaller bases - I spent a lot of time in and out of them, both as operating crew on the 737, and as a "friend of the flight deck" on the DC9. Heck, I grew up in a town so small, I bet there were fewer inhabitants than the number of employees at Newgirl's base. And 5 mergers later, I know more about change than I ever wanted to. But if you consider your "family" of coworkers to be a closed shop that doesn't accept new members, then of course it's going to eventually dwindle away to nothing. That's just the natural progression of life.

In his speech at this years retirement party, Rainer Bauer included what I thought was a rather poignant personal aside. He said that for he and his coursemates, the past year had brought two "firsts". It was the first time that one of them had retired from their course, and it was also the first time that one of them had passed away. I think what he was feeling was probably similar to what Newgirl has been dealing with, but he managed to relate the story without mentioning that they were OAC, and why would he? It just isn't appropriate - we have all experienced the loss of coworkers.

Rob Giguere told me when the whole merger process began that it was going to take a generation for all of the divisive stuff to disappear. Obviously he was right, and for the good of the company going forward, maybe it's just as well that those people who consider themselves "original" anything, no matter which component, are taking early retirement packages.

Mitch:

Which was it this time - too much caffeine, too little caffeine, too much rum, or too little rum? I think your initial response may have been a wee bit over the top.

Newgirl:

I get the impression that you are a really nice person, and probably really great at your job. It's possible that you and I may have crossed paths over the years, either when I was following my husband around on the DC9/727/A320, or in the initial phases of the merger when you and your coworkers started handling the QR/XE turnarounds I was doing. I was even cheering from the sidelines when I read that you had decided to buy yourself a motorcycle instead of getting the roof fixed, despite the fact that motorcycles scare the bejeebers out of me.

But in your response to my condolences, I thought that using that label made it sound very elitist, like it was somehow more tragic that it would happen to the OAC group. I hope that you didn't mean it that way, but it has been mentioned to you before that these labels are like a poke in the eye with a sharp stick to a lot of people, and if you continue to use them, you are going to keep drawing flack.

And finally, if there is anyone from the hiring department reading this, I think it would be in the best interest of the company to give special consideration to the highly diplomatic offspring that have been raised in mixed AC/CP families.

[Mitch Cronin]

Which was it this time - too much caffeine, too little caffeine, too much rum, or too little rum? I think your initial response may have been a wee bit over the top.

Rum? Haven't had a drop since around the end of February. And though there are those here who've accused me of too much/not enough caffeine, I don't recall ever using that as an excuse for anything I've said.

You've given no explanation of what it is you felt was over the top, but I'll guess it was my comparing her comments to racism....? I don't see that as being over the top. ...and I think if you spent some time in these shoes, you might agree. For one thing, I'm not equal, y'see. Thanks to George Adams I'll always be relegated to the back of the bus - "list one [my OAC counterpart] will bid first for all purposes" -... A fact I can live with if I must, though not without feeling the sting of the consequences of that little phrase... but when I hear chat of the kind that separates O's from X's into continued separate "families", I generally speak out, regardless of which side it comes from. (there are those here that can verify that) I do so because it only serves to hold wedges in the divide.

One of the loudest of the OAC trumpeters in our group (probably THE loudest) is something of a racist, and we argue about his racist beliefs from time to time... But we usually do that over coffee in my truck. He and I (in spite of our differences) have found some common ground... (Mike is a friend to both of us, for instance) One reason he and I can get along is that he's not one to hide his feelings. I don't have to be concerned that he'll be stabbing me in the back, because if he felt like he wanted to, he'd call me to face him first. He hates all things with the X label... and he's right to complain that the label exists in far too many places. (unfortunately, our superiors have not seen fit to remove the name from many things - aircraft parts, equipment of all sorts, cointainers... etc...) and to him, that grates. (probably to others less vocal than he, as well) He hangs on to what he sees AC was before the merger, and all these little reminders of that other company name are to him, something of another bit of salt in a wound.

For what it's worth, I agree with him. The name should be gone. He shouldn't ever see the label, nor should he ever have to hear the phrase "at that company, we did things this way"... those too are more forces holding the wedges in place. Eventually, when he recognizes that we've both worked for the same goals long enough, he'll relax. But in the mean time, we can all do something to lessen the sting.

I mention his tendency toward racist beliefs because I think it's relevant. I suspect the same emotions are involved... the same tight grip on feelings of what once was, sameness, community... how the newcomers/immigrants have changed how things were. Not over the top, in my opinion. I think it's the same mindset.

Cheers,

Mitch

[cp fa]

It wasn't so much what you said, as much as the red print, big giant letters, and P/O'd smilies. I thought you could have been a little gentler, considering that she is grieving the loss of a good friend.

Sometimes it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

[Mitch Cronin]

I once had a chat with a man who was into "Scientology" (Bill Henderson - singer/songwriter) about something of what that "religion" was about... I didn't get, or don't recall much of it, but what I did get was his explanation of the need to communicate our feelings well. Sometimes, in trying to be "gentle", we miss the chance to successfully communicate altogether. ...but you're right, there is a place for gentle, and occasions where anything other than gentle is harsh.... and perhaps I blew it. Her lament didn't sound so much like one for the loss of a friend as it did for the loss of a time, to me.... "2005 is really the end of the Air Canada family as we knew it."

I didn't intend to sound insensitive to the loss of a co-worker, If I missed that, I do apologize.

[newgirl]

Mitch

No apology necessary. And I apologize on the "big mouth" comment. I forget that I really have never met any of you on this forum but feel I know you after reading your posts day in, day out. My mistake and I will try to watch my manners in the future.

In my base , a big mouth is quite complimentary compared to some of the names we call each other!

As to the X and O factor, well its the first merger I've been through in my career and I quess most of us small bases are taking it harder than larger bases or anyone who has been through a merger. There is much more happening behing the scenes here which I will not go into. Perhaps that is why my lament seemed to be focused on more than my friend.

CPFA

Didn't mean to sound elitist. But when you only have 50 people in a base and there is no movement in personnel in 15 years or more, we all know each other well. As I stated to Mitch , there is much more going on in this base which I won't relate.

I will get my bike hopefully next year. Fingers crossed!