Mitch Cronin Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 And a fan of all aspects of Canadian aviation...I'd hate to see the demise of yet another part of Canada's aviation history. Even if I didn't work for Air Canada, I'd be arguing for it's survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lancaster Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 If you look at aviation since inception of commercial air travel. There is not one company that is in its present form. Changes occur, and most of the time for the better. As far as here in Canada, without question, should AC not have been protected by our Feds as they have up until a few years ago, Canada would have about 5 or 6 very healthy airlines in Canada. They have done more to harm this industry than good. Evidence of this is good balance sheets on WJ, CanJet and apparantely, for whatever MB at Jetsgo states, with them as well. Transat is and will continue to be profitable. We as Canadians should be looking forward to AC not harming our industry any longer. You will all find work at other airlines, although you will have to dump your baggage at the door for a healthier future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 There's said to be a fire burning somewhere below the earth's surface, with enough room for you. Your interests are obviously as selfish as mine, yet you wish harm on others. That just ain't nice. You live with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ECB Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 he's just tellin' it like it is Mitch. You've got your agenda, we've got ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lancaster Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Have I ever once wished someone would Burn in you know where? It is some of you who should rethink your posts as far as wishing this type of ending on someone. Lancaster or not, that is one thing I pride myself on is not to denegrate to the levels that some of you have. Personally, I don't care what you wish on me. However, I'm proud to state that I do not denegrate. Re-read my posts. I state fact and I tell it like it is. If you do not like truths, or perhaps misinterpret the obvious as wishing ill-will on others, then you are the one who is not a well individual. I sleep very well at night...do you with those type of demonic thoughts coursing through you head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 Aye, but mine doesn't involve any wishing for suffering and hardship on others. And besides the obvious "agenda" I have, I'm sincere in that I'd argue for it's protection in any case. Why should we let an American CEO, and a Chinese rich kid preside over the fall of another Canadian aviation icon? I don't like it even from as objective a viewpoint as I can muster. How many years after the Arrow was killed are we still regretting that? I know this is somewhat different, but when I think about the endurance of that red maple leaf, it's not so different either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsgas Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 If AC goes under it will be thanks to some of the Attitude and sense of Entitlement of many of its employees. AC has to compete on a level playing field ,the same as any other Canadian Air Carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrench Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Mitch: "The Arrow" I remember that. Where did all those people go? NASA etc. But that was then and this is now. There is a time to fight and I am not convinced this is the right time. On my travels I have spoken with many EX Eastern A&P's, guess what their take is on this whole thing.... We can't go around with this "It can't Happen to us attitude". The next big surprise may be a nasty one. But hey, I always admire your positive attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 Re: "thanks to some of the Attitude and sense of Entitlement of many of its employees." I don't think there can be much doubt that that's a contributor, but to say it's the reason seems pretty false to me. The business plans that have and/or haven't been in place all along surely have to take the majority of the credit. Employees can only work with what their bosses hand them. And I'd argue the playing field has never been "level". Not for the many that went under while fighting AC, and not for AC ever since. The feds own a huge part of the mess that Canadian aviation has become. Both through neglect, and through meddling. The worst of it has been the neglect since 09/11/01, under our thankfully departed Mr Collenette's leadership in Transport. Not to mention his meddling prior to that... ok, I just mentioned it. Your blaming it on employees reeks of bandwagonism to me. The majority of AC's employees are just as dedicated, hard working and talented as those at any other company here in Canada. Pam makes a horrid spokesperson though... I do wish she'd shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 test Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 I don't share that "It can't happen to us" attitude. I think it can, and it may already have happened. I don't think it should happen though. Thanks for that last bit... A couple of folks here have told me my glass is always half empty (and I think they're wrong), so that adds ballance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CJRT Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 just curious Mitch, is there anything wrong in being Chinese, rich or a kid ? No one wishes ill will on anyone and I highly doubt Lancaster does as well. IF Air Canada survives this process, has enough been changed both financial and attitude wise (management and employyee), to make this company prosper in the long term? When I was there 8 months ago it sure had not. It's no surprise to me that the savings are being questioned. My union leaders admitted that the savings they had found were only reflected upon a static snapshot of the company taken either just prior or just after April 1. Even though the new deals were meant to be a year over year savings for a nine year period, it was admitted that realistically the savings model could not be applied accurately going into the future. I hope you and my friends all have jobs at the end of the day. Whether it'll be with AC or not is still left to be determined. Best Wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsgas Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Mitch I respect your passion for your company but reject that you have an unbiased view . Successful companies like JetBlue, Southwest,and WestJet have high employee morale and great customer appeal. AC has had internal conflict causing a lot of dirty laundry to be aired in public. ALPA versus ACPA, orignal AC versus CP employees,CAW newspapers ads attacking AC,the pilots strike of 1997,none of this creates positive press in the media. You are paying the price of shooting yourselves in the foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 Thanks for your thoughts... As for your curiosity: Of course there's nothing wrong with being Chinese, and I'm insulted at the question. I meant -and I thought it would be clear- that, as a Canadian, I resent seeing as prominent an icon of Canada as Air Canada has been for as long as I can remember, being dismantled and destroyed by outsiders. I'm not impressed by Mr. Li's claim to being a "Canadian". I've seen others take on that title purely for financial reasons and I'd be surprised to learn that's not the case here. We've lost so much of Canadiana over the years, and given so much away in terms of our own ability to maintain it... this is just another example, and I think it's one that goes too far. I grew up seeing that red circle and maple leaf, and I've always known it was a part of what Canada is. It's even more now, since it's now a blend of every other major airline in our history. I think it's worth preserving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leading Edge Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 We are paying the price of the Politicians shooting us in the foot. If the market had been left alone all a long then things would be a lot different today. Believe me, if WJ becomes the new monopoly then you will get a first hand taste of what I am talking about. Don't be surprised if WJ's capital is used to backstop AC. It's been done before, just the names were different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaEH Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Mitch, Contrary to what you or any other employee might feel, nobody wishes any ill will towards you or the employees of Air Canada. Lancaster does not speak for all of us (myself included). I've spoken with a lot of WJ'ers in the past few days about the future of Air Canada, and you know what? I found only one person who wanted Air Canada to fail. One person out of about 30 or so. A healthy Air Canada (provided they want to remain profitable and healthy) is good for everyone. You commented on how Li would "preside over the fall of another Canadian aviation icon". Yes, certain external conditions contributed to the situation Air Canada is in, we know that. But could you not see this coming? No offense Mitch, but if Air Canada is to liquidate, Li is not the man to be blaming. As a personal observation, I see Air Canada's failure (should it happen) due to management, unions, and internal division. Would I be correct? Or does it go deeper than that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 "do you with those type of demonic thoughts coursing through you head?" Actually I'm well aware that the words will only sting if you're feeling any guilt. I doubt you are, but I think you ought to. Which makes the saying it somewhat therapeutic to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 test Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 No, you'd be correct. I think Mr. Li has played a part though... If he hadn't put himself in the position, knowing all that was, and presenting such an apparently unworkable obstacle, perhaps another investor would have been able to pull it off in a different way? I know not all WestJetters are hoping we go down. Thanks. Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CJRT Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 That's okay if you're insulted. By your own admission in your follow up, you view Mr.Milton and Mr.Li's involvement with AC in a negative light. By stating the ethnicity/birthplace of both you are underlining your point using a xenophobic high lighter. Not sure your point really required that to be effective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaEH Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 You seem like you've given up all hope, Mitch. Li is investing his money in an airline which clearly had its positives and negatives right from the get-go, he knew what he was getting into. Whether or not you agree with how the restructuring has gone and will continue to go, thousands of people still have jobs and Li may be the only person willing to invest in saving them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 My point? Or yours?... Mine was to say that as Canadians, we ought to be somewhat interested in that which is Canadian. I realize that there are some who view Canada as nothing but a nation of immigrants who's loyalties are elsewhere, but I don't share that view. I care about Canada as an Englishman cares about England, ...as an American cares about the US of A, ...as Chinese care about China, etcetera... If that's some kind of phobia, I'll admit to being surprised by that news. I don't know why that doesn't seem obviously pertinent to my point. I would hope that other Canadians also have a desire to protect some of what Canada is, and some of what we've come from... as well as some of what has stood to represent Canada for a long time. I do find it objectionable that we could casually stand by and watch the destruction of what I consider to be as much a symbol of Canada as others would consider the game of Hockey, or Maple Syrup, or even our flag itself. If that's "xenophobic", then I can live with that... but it sure seems to change the meaning of a "phobia"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 Ok... I'm still hopefull... but I've been reading how he's been losing interest, and is perhaps now more interested in "saving face"? You're right, he knew what he was getting into... But was he banking on changes that he couldn't get?... I don't know. I do know that if he was, he was taking a gamble with our livelihoods that he could afford to take, but a lot of us couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 I agree with you. An easy comparison would be the closure of the Canadian NHL franchises. Sure, there are other leagues in Canada that are also entertaining, but you can bet your bottom dollar that the same clowns who say "let AC die because there are other airlines to pick up the slack" would be screaming about losing something as Canadian as hockey. These same people would fight tooth and nail to ensure their survival. Why? Not because the NHL has any more value than any other entertainment. No. It would be because hockey is Canadian. We should have the same pride in the maple leaf flying around the globe. Air Canada represents Canada to the rest of the world. Let's not forget that. We should all be fighting to rescue what is a Canadian icon, but as Canadians so frequently do, they would rather kick it when it's down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arctic Ace Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 I think Mitch, Li stated from the beginning that his investment was predicated on a successful agreement regarding the pension issue. The unions clinging to an agreement hammered out with the management of Air Canada and not the ones who would be making the investment is indicative of a gross misunderstanding of CCAA or selective ignorance. The unions chose CCAA from the beginning and now I believe they are trying to save face. After all, that is what CCAA is - the renegotiating of contracts to the satifaction of a potential investor. Current Contracts Are Ashes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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