Mitch Cronin Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 ring.... . . . ring.... . . . ring.... . . (I've been asleep for about half an hour) . ...... h e l l o ? . Hello Mitch? . ...uhya? This is your dentist office and we're just calling to remind you of your appointment this Monday at 9:45. Are you still able to make that? . . . . . . ....uhhhh what day's today? . ...? This is Wednesday... . ...hang on, lemme figure this out... Wednesday?... this was day 3... I work tomorrow, and I'm off for 4, so I go in Monday night... When was that? . Monday at 9:45! (annoyed) . ...and this is Wednesday, right? . YES! (impatient) . . Ok, if this is Wednesday then I can come in on Monday. . Thank you, bye bye. click. Nobody gets it.... What kind of an idiot doesn't know what day it is?.... The kind that works nights on an 8 day cycle, that's what. It's day one of day's off, that's all I know... at least until I wake up and then I don't ever seem to even know that much. Is it night? Day? Do I have to go to work today? So... to all the impatient voices on the telephone who wake me up and want to know if I can be someplace on Monday.... TELL ME WHAT FREAKIN' DAY IT IS FIRST! Now, having gotten that off my chest.... You pilots who write snags without any useful information... "Eicas msg R ENG BLEED with bleed light on. This is very annoying, [blah blah yada yada]" OF COURSE IT'S FREAKIN ANOYING! Give us some info! What kind of pressure did you have on that side? Were you able to get wing anti ice or reverse from that side? What were the associated conditions when the snag occured? Some times you guys could really help us find the problem, if you'd just look around some more when it happens, and tell us what's going on. <end rant> Cheers, Mitch ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 "What day is it?" "...uh, Tuesday." "Ahch...this place must be Honolulu..." "What time is it?.." "Eleven." "At night?" "No, morning." "Then this here place must be Sydney." "Uh. What're you doing next month?" "Wednesdays." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 18, 2003 Author Share Posted October 18, 2003 What a life eh? :D ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Depart YVR 1955 PDT Friday; Arrive HNL 2245 Friday, (0145 PDT Saturday); Depart for SYD 0035 Sunday, (0335 PDT Sunday); Flight time 10:35hrs to SYD; Arr SYD 0710 (Monday), (1410 PDT Sunday) Sleep from 0830 - 1230 Monday (1530 to 1930 PDT Sunday), and later 2100 Monday to 0640 Tuesday, (0400 PDT Monday to 1340 PDT Monday); Depart SYD 0930 Tuesday, (1630 PDT Monday); Flight Time 9:45hrs to HNL; Arr HNL 2315 Monday, (0215 PDT Tuesday); Depart HNL 0100 Wednesday, (O400 PDT Wednesday); Arr YVR 0930 PDT, 111.10hrs (roughly 6 days) after beginning of cycle, all duty periods in the lowest circadian period. Just because you're not the only one doesn't make it any better Mitch. Its why we have augmentation (a huge difference), and why circadian rhythms have to be taken into account in risk-critical work. Not that ATAC (Air Transport Association of Canada) or the CARAC process (review process for the Canadian Aviation Regulations) are listening... Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Well, I chose the life and its still a fine one, but enthusiasm or keeness cannot conquer physical or mental fatigue despite what regulators or airlines may think. -Depart YVR 1955 PDT Friday; -Arrive HNL 2245 Friday, (0145 PDT Saturday); -Depart for SYD 0035 Sunday, (0335 PDT Sunday); -Flight time 10:35hrs to SYD; -Arr SYD 0710 (Monday), (1410 PDT Sunday) -Sleep from 0830 - 1230 Monday (1530 to 1930 PDT Sunday), and later 2100 Monday to 0640 Tuesday, (0400 PDT Monday to 1340 PDT Monday); -Depart SYD 0930 Tuesday, (1630 PDT Monday); -Flight Time 9:45hrs to HNL; -Arr HNL 2315 Monday, (0215 PDT Tuesday); -Depart HNL 0100 Wednesday, (O400 PDT Wednesday); -Arr YVR 0930 PDT, 111.10hrs (roughly 6 days) after beginning of cycle, all duty periods in the lowest circadian period. Just because you're not the only one doesn't make it any better Mitch. Its why we have augmentation (a huge difference), and why circadian rhythms have to be taken into account in risk-critical work. Not that ATAC (Air Transport Association of Canada) or the CARAC process (review process for the Canadian Aviation Regulations) are listening... Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 18, 2003 Author Share Posted October 18, 2003 Yessir. Amen. ... but now, you wouldn't be makin' excuses for those guys that don't give us enough info in their snags now are you? A man with a couple of medical degrees told me I'd have to stay on the midnight shift on my days off... He wasn't able to tell me how I could pull that off while maintaining my persona as a member of this race, and a husband and father. (and he acknowledged that he knew I wouldn't be able to, saying in the end, "I don't know what you're going to do, but you won't be able to do it.") I've always wondered about doctors too... They do that. All sorts of ridiculously long and wacky hours for those guys... and they should know better! Your hours would cook me. The one redeeming thing I think you get (aside from your augment, which, while I'm sure it helps for a bit, I'm also sure it doesn't mean you don't fly while tired)... is a several day recovery after it's all done... I find the recovery for me takes somewhat more than the days I have... ferinstance... Here I am at 0230 when I should be getting up with the family in the am... By the time I'm due to go back to work, I might have managed to swing about half way back...setting me up nicely for some dog tired nights at work... followed by dog tired days at home... etc... But I didn't start this yack wanting to get into a whining-poor-me-thing... just wanted to steam a bit about folks not understanding. Like the lady from the dentist's office on the phone who sounded as though she thought I was some kind of a moron for not knowing what day it was. And then... somehow, I thought of those snags where a guy gets into telling us how annoying a particular malfunction is, without giving us enough information to help us trouble-shoot the snag... so maybe he's tired too... Hmmmm, maybe there was some synchronicity there after all? Seriously though... I know Don. Doing what you do with that kind of circadian thrashing seems to invite difficulties. The sad truth is that if you don't do it, somebody else will... same for me. So how do we fix that? Or can we? ...maybe we'll just have to learn to sing the blues. Could be worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest abc Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Financially you get compensated for it. Some folks think you get paid because of all the responsibility. To a degree it is true. But basically, you get paid on how hard it is on you. If a pilot with seniority wanted to, he or she could choose to fly in the daylight hours, returning to to the originating time zone to prevent havoc on the circadian rythms. But some folks like the money and "glory: associated with the big iron travelling over many time zones. Definitely it is hard on the body. But it IS one's choice. A few grey hairs in exchange for more money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Spectator Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 You are probably right about the choice of travelling through time zones and the compensation involved from a flt crew perspective. From Mitch's position though there is no extra compensation, just a screwed up body clock and grey hair for free. There used to be a small premium for working nights but that went the way of me and many others, it disappeared from the AC scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RegAme Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Info. If the pilots want us to fix things, give the PROPER information to lead us in the right direction. If you're not going to take the time, don't expect us to either. My favorite: "A/P U/S". No s$#t Sherlock! "Oh well. No time to troubleshoot. Could be any of a dozen problems. Too bad they were in such a rush to get off that they couldn't give us any info. Deferred as MEL 22-1" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RegAme Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Money! Now there's whole other p#$$#%g match. There are no extra premiums for night shift now (grey hairs yes, money fo it? No.). I get paid the same, whether I know only one aircraft, or three (and I'm talking about totally different aircraft, DHC8, CRJ, BAE146). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 ABC; Agree with your post. My approach has always been from the other side and not the personal one in the sense that the flying must be done and for those doing it, the regulations must support reasonable duty days as recognized through the thousands of studies done on the matter. Presently, they do not. The regulator's responsibility is downloaded to pilot Associations which must spend negotiating dollars to limit duty days and provide proper crew augmentation. ATAC has been a very big, although not the only, lobbying factor in this. Under the Canadian Air Regulations on Flight Duty Time Limitations and Rest Periods (which include a three-hour extension for "unforeseen circumstances"*, the A340 would run out of fuel before an augmented crew was illegal under the CARS,(one more pilot, not two...two augments aren't even in the regs). Less dramatically put, a legal crew duty day with just one more pilot and a (legal) bunk is 20 hours and three legs, and can be in the seat for 14 hours of that duty day, extendable by 3 hours in unforeseen circumstances. Well, although it can happen, there isn't much in airline work that isn't "unforeseen" and negotiating the way around that relief has also been a problem. Flight Crew Augmentation enforced by the Association's Collective Agreement has gone a long way to making long-haul work safer, as has aircraft reliability. It has taken about twenty years to get to this stage of enlightenment. In 1984+, we used to have an extra pilot on LHR-BOM-LHR only because of the contractually reduced duty-days in the silent hours. As a side benefit to the airline and the passengers, the extra pilot (usually an F/O) sometimes saved the operation by standing in for a sick crew member. On recovery days, it takes me about three to four days to feel normal. If I have another flight to do within that period, augmentation helps. Fatigue is not about being macho or a hero. Its like anoxia...no amount of testoserone will carry oxygen to the red-blood cells, and no amount of macho will keep one awake if one is fatigued. Its a perennial conversation Mitch. Shift work of all kinds is a necessity in a 24/7 business world. ABC is correct in saying we're at least partially compensated for doing it. As for choosing to do it, that's obviously open to question. From what I understand, you guys can't choose unless its to choose to change careers or, less drastically, perhaps jobs within the organization. That's an almost-impossible solution for most however. Regards, Don * http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/regserv/carac/cars/cars/720e.htm (CARS 720.16(3)() Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 ABC; Agree with your post. My approach has always been from the other side and not the personal one in the sense that the flying must be done and for those doing it, the regulations must support reasonable duty days as recognized through the thousands of studies done on the matter. Presently, they do not. The regulator's responsibility is downloaded to pilot Associations which must spend negotiating dollars to limit duty days and provide proper crew augmentation. ATAC has been a very big, although not the only, lobbying factor in this. Under the Canadian Air Regulations on Flight Duty Time Limitations and Rest Periods (which include a three-hour extension for "unforeseen circumstances"*, the A340 would run out of fuel before an augmented crew was illegal under the CARS,(one more pilot, not two...two augments aren't even in the regs). Less dramatically put, a legal crew duty day with just one more pilot and a (legal) bunk is 20 hours and three legs, and can be in the seat for 14 hours of that duty day, extendable by 3 hours in unforeseen circumstances. Well, although it can happen, there isn't much in airline work that isn't "unforeseen" and negotiating the way around that relief has also been a problem. Flight Crew Augmentation enforced by the Association's Collective Agreement has gone a long way to making long-haul work safer, as has aircraft reliability. It has taken about twenty years to get to this stage of enlightenment. In 1984+, we used to have an extra pilot on LHR-BOM-LHR only because of the contractually reduced duty-days in the silent hours. As a side benefit to the airline and the passengers, the extra pilot (usually an F/O) sometimes saved the operation by standing in for a sick crew member. On recovery days, it takes me about three to four days to feel normal. If I have another flight to do within that period, augmentation helps. Fatigue is not about being macho or a hero. Its like anoxia...no amount of testoserone will carry oxygen to the red-blood cells, and no amount of macho will keep one awake if one is fatigued. Its a perennial conversation Mitch. Shift work of all kinds is a necessity in a 24/7 business world. ABC is partially correct in saying we're compensated for doing it, not by premiums (there is a slight night-time differential for flight crews), but by the higher wages, although those have been under recent significant pressure I know. As for choosing to do it, that's obviously open to question. From what I understand, you guys can't choose unless its to choose to change careers or, less drastically, perhaps jobs within the organization. That's an almost-impossible solution for most however. As for choosing "the big iron" despite it being "more" fatiguing, I disagree that there's a choice to "escape" fatigue by flying smaller airplanes domestically. The A320/B737/MD80 workloads are often very high and one traverses weather fronts sometimes four times in one day in very busy terminals. Domestic A320 flying can create very high fatigue levels although its of a different kind. Just take a look at the crew duty day of the American MD88 guys in Little Rock. Regards, Don * http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/regserv/carac/cars/cars/720e.htm (CARS 720.16(3)() Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 18, 2003 Author Share Posted October 18, 2003 Groggy Man's Night Shfit Blues Twang ding ding doo dang Well I got me a number Twang ding ding doo dang and I got me some cash Twang ding ding doo dang now when I get some time Twang ding ding doo dang I'll have a re - tire - ment bash Twang dang do dang do dang dang cause life's a - bout the li - ving... and dYin' ...is gonna crash in on me. ...grog... cough cough... (croaky voice) Thankya, Gronin Mitchell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 18, 2003 Author Share Posted October 18, 2003 Groggy Man's Night Shift Blues Twang ding ding doo dang -- Well I got me a number Twang ding ding doo dang -- and I got me some cash Twang ding ding doo dang -- now when I get some time Twang ding ding doo dang -- I'll have a re - tire - ment bash Twang dang do dang do dang dang -- cause life's a - bout the li - ving... and dYin' ...is gonna crash in on me. ...grog... cough cough... (croaky voice) Thankya, Gronin Mitchell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R64L977 Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Getting frustrated by incomplete snag write ups isn't the answer. If time is short and a verbal briefing from the flight crew isn't possible most systems on aircraft have a documented procedure in their respective maintenance manual to test the overal serviceability of the system whether it be bite tests or operational tests. The minimum equipment list is our friend when turn around times are short - as long as maintenance & planning follow up on troubleshooting the fault at the next available downtime. Safety should never take a back seat to time in our trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 19, 2003 Author Share Posted October 19, 2003 I've read elsewhere that the fix for us could be an ugly thing for you guys... Evidently, the lack of a curfew in airports elsewhere enables much more night time flying and hence, a choice of alloting downtime during the day for maintenance, since it doesn't much matter. And, in those environments, it's apparently common to offer huge shift premiums for those that do work nights. But.... somehow I doubt that curfews are about to be lifted any time soon in any Canadian airports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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