Air Canada and all that Jazz

June 14, 2003

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DEFCON · June 14, 2003

Good work Monty!

John S. · June 14, 2003

"Nevertheless, conflict aside, Mr. Johnson also acknowledged that, in the end, there isn't much to choose from between flying a 747 and flying a Dash 8. "Once the thing is pushed back from the gate, except for the number of throttles you have in your hand, there's not much difference," he said."

This has to be music to the creditors ears.

ChicoChico · June 14, 2003

as well as a quote out of context - if you read all the comments you get the big picture!

Here's another then;

"If they wanted to pay pilots according to landings and takeoffs, the guys who are flying up north in the bush would be making far more than we are," he said. "That's not a recognized way of deciding how you should be paid in the airline industry."

give us a break JS

John S. · June 14, 2003

I love the way you find the silliest exaggeration on the article.

And, NO Chico, I will not give you a break when you (or any supposedly ACPA pilot) posts what I feel is misleading nonsense.

I expect the same in return.

ChicoChico · June 14, 2003

Let me get this straight then;

You pick a quote out of context to hang your hat on and when I do the same mine is a silly exaggeration?? ...have a look in the mirror.

And just because you feel its misleading nonsense doesn't necessarily make it so.

Your obvious vitriol for things ACPA shows through quite a bit John and it is not very becoming...

Chico

PS I think your quote was misleading nonsense so we're even (oh yeah that'll happen )

June 14, 2003

Northern bush pilot's should be paid the most cause they definitely earn it.

When's the last time YOU circled at night off a fuul procedure NDB approach, with a missed approach time of 3:30/ 8 miles past the beacon, with an onbound track that offsets the runway by 150 deg., into an airport that the only reason you can operate out of is because legally your a/c only has to slow to 35 kts before you go off the end.

These guys should be paid the most!!!

Air Canada doesn't even allow circling

June 14, 2003

Gentlemen!

This article should be viewed for its probative value. It should be used as neither as a shield, nor a sword!

Eventer

June 14, 2003

One sometimes reads the words on the paper and can interpret the intent of the words in different ways. Let us allow the creditors and shareholders to interpret it in their own way as well. I think we all know what the flavour of the article was really about. If we choose to twist it in any way, we can in our own minds and thats O.K.

John S. · June 14, 2003

One of the problems with posting our conversations is that so much is lost because you can't hear my tone or see my face. I'll try to be more clear.

1. The quote you used was an exaggeration. I mean, really, Mr. Johnson comparing yourselves to pilots who are flying up north in the bush. Really stretched the facts of the flying Air Canada does to make a point didn't he?

2. I simply made a note of something Mr. Johnson (the President of the biggest, most powerful pilot union in Canada) had to say about the jobs we in the Air Canada group share. I'm not hanging my hat on it - but I do hope the creditors read the paper.

3. I accept this point you make: just because you feel its misleading nonsense doesn't necessarily make it so .

4. I do not accept this point you make: Your obvious vitriol for things ACPA shows through quite a bit John and it is not very becoming...

I do not hold any grudge for ACPA per say, but I do find it rather tough to take when supposedly ACPA pilots keep posting nonsense. I mean there are some pretty strong-willed posters out there that for some reason believe that every pilot in Canada should strive to be a senior Air Canada ACPA-represented pilot.

God forbid anyone work for WestJet or Costco or Jazz and consider it a career.

And YES, I will be thrilled if ACPA were to lose this round (and that means the 70-100 seat jets) and thus the Jazz pilots be employed by the new cost effective national airline. (But, according to the ACPA posters here the chances of that are about the same as winning a lottery. )

But if it does happen that way then ACPA pilots can still be the heavy pilots all they want. (High salary and radiation exposures seem to go hand in hand. Have at it.)

June 14, 2003

CC,

Ignore this John guy. A friend tells me he's an older guy on the 146 out west. Apparently hes changed allot b/c he used to be reserved and well spoken and now just very bitter.

Cheers

sfb

John S. · June 14, 2003

One of the problems with posting our conversations is that so much is lost because you can't hear my tone or see my face. I'll try to be more clear.

1. The quote Chico used was an exaggeration. I mean, really, Mr. Johnson comparing yourselves to pilots who are flying up north in the bush. Really stretched the facts of the flying Air Canada does to make a point didn't he?

2. I simply made a note of something Mr. Johnson (the President of the biggest, most powerful pilot union in Canada) had to say about the jobs we in the Air Canada group share. I'm not hanging my hat on it - but I do hope the creditors read the paper.

3. I accept this point Chico made: "just because you feel its misleading nonsense doesn't necessarily make it so ".

4. I do not accept this point: "Your obvious vitriol for things ACPA shows through quite a bit John and it is not very becoming..."

I do not hold any grudge for ACPA per say, but I do find it rather tough to take when supposedly ACPA pilots keep posting nonsense. I mean there are some pretty strong-willed posters out there that for some reason believe that every pilot in Canada should strive to be a senior Air Canada ACPA-represented pilot.

God forbid anyone work for WestJet or Costco or Jazz and consider it a career. How many times have non-ACPA pilots been called 'bitter'?

And YES, I will be thrilled if ACPA were to lose this round (and that means the 70-100 seat jets) and thus the Jazz pilots be employed by the new cost effective national airline. (But, according to the ACPA posters here the chances of that are about the same as winning a lottery. )

But if it does happen that way then you ACPA pilots can still be the heavy pilots you all want to be. (High salary and radiation exposures seem to go hand in hand. Have at it.)

June 14, 2003

Is that the first of many propaganda ads ALPA's hired PR firm is suggesting?

ALPA did hire a PR firm did they not?

June 14, 2003

Propaganda? A good article it was and yes, ACPA's DJ looks like an idiot again.

ALPA was very wise in hiring the world's largest PR Firm and only 2 or 3 ALPA pilots are allowed to speak to the media. Whether or not this particular article was a product of the PR Firm doesn't matter...so far ALPA has a very good PR image and not only through the media but to the real stakeholders and decision makers in this CCAA process.

ACPA should give serious thoughts to giving DJ and SB a modicum of basic media training. Then again, at this point, perhaps it's a little late.

June 15, 2003

You seem to insinuate that Mr.Allen's (ALPA) facts that were presented in the article as full of half truths and misleading. IMHO, I didn't get that from the article. However, Mr.Johnson's feeble attemt at diparagement towards the JAZZ pilots does nothing for his so called cause. Especially admitting in the end that the only difference after pushback was more "throttles".

Information needs to be given to the public in an orderly manner, and this is why I think ALPA has decided to hire the PR firm. They (PR Firm) are the professionals when it comes to that. Another reason is that given at the start of the article. Good Day.

June 15, 2003

You seem to insinuate that Mr.Allen's (ALPA) facts that were presented in the article as full of half truths and misleading. IMHO, I didn't get that from the article. However, Mr.Johnson's feeble attempt at diparagement towards the JAZZ pilots does nothing for his so called cause. Especially admitting in the end that the only difference after pushback was more "throttles".

Information needs to be given to the public in an orderly manner, and this is why I think ALPA has decided to hire the PR firm. They (PR Firm) are the professionals when it comes to that. Another reason is that given at the start of the article. Good Day.

June 15, 2003

You seem to insinuate that Mr.Allen's (ALPA) facts that were presented in the article as full of half truths and misleading. IMHO, I didn't get that from the article. However, Mr.Johnson's feeble attempt at disparagement towards the JAZZ pilots does nothing for his so called cause. Especially admitting in the end that the only difference after pushback was more "throttles".

Information needs to be given to the public in an orderly manner, and this is why I think ALPA has decided to hire the PR firm. They (PR Firm) are the professionals when it comes to that. Another reason is that given at the start of the article. Good Day.

June 15, 2003

I got a huge laugh out of the statement that informs the public that you "don't sling baggage, take tickets or dispense inflight meals" the way their counterparts do. Firstly, thats about it at AC, meals are "dispensed" and as far as slinging bags,and helping out elsewhere, I'm sure he was refering to Canada's most successful airline here, and just to let ya know, that slinging bag thing puts about 2-3 million per year extra right in my pocket!! So ifs that a bad thing........keep the bags comin'!! (laughing all the way to the bank!!)

As far as a PR firm puttin' the spin on this....you just wasted your money, I fire their AS_ ASAP for makin' you look stupid!

June 15, 2003

"Mr.Johnson's feeble attempt at diparagement towards the JAZZ pilots"

I'm not a fan of Johnson's here but you misrepresented his position. The issue was why does flying a bigger airplane warrant more money (according to popular perception).

Many would say that it's because they're more difficult to fly. Johnson's admission in this respect is that they require the same level of skill, or if you want: "the only difference after pushback was more throttles"

Now, why do I think that flying a bigger aircraft should warrant more money? Because if you screw up you can potentially kill more people... that's why.

The other factor is strictly dollars and cents. It would be good to pay all pilots the same. However, if you paid the Dash-8 Captain the same salary as a 747 captain, you'd have to sell an awful lot of tickets to break even. (This, by the way, is the reason why the 50 seat RJ's are inappropriate for the mainline, IMO).

Then, you do want persons of superior experience on bigger aircraft to actually want to take on the responsibility of taking care of all of those persons and make the front page if they screw up; for the same pay, who would do it for any length of time? Why don't we even pay captains and F/O's the same? Because of responsibility.

Remember, a super-tanker captain makes more money than a dorey captain. For the same pay, I'd pick the dorey because I could be home every night, and I wouldn't have to put up with the responsibility.

You could say the same thing about our RM. Why does he make so much money, comparatively? Because he's responsible for a company with a cash flow of billions of dollars, affecting many creditors, shareholders and employees.

Goggles

June 15, 2003