Further Comments for AC Pilots

[Guest neo]

Thanks for the warning, Dave. Believe me, I've considered that possibility.

If you have information that says that only a direction has been chosen, and not a distance, it is different from the information that I've received. The information I have states that a swing in the mid-seniority bracket will 800-900 numbers. The information I've received states that all CAIL retirements will be applied to CAIL pilots only. The information I have states that the outcome of the Keller award, as it exists today, will be nothing short of a devastating blow for the former AC pilots.

Now, it's possible that the information I've received is bogus. But I'm willing to state that I believe it to be credible. And would you like indirect verification of that credibility? How many x-CAIL pilots do you see screaming about the impending Keller award, Dave? And how many do you see saying, "Just let the award be made PUBLIC, then you can speak up." Do you suppose that they don't know what's going on? Or does it tell you everything you need to know about direction and distance both.

Best wishes,

neo

neo

[Guest Kal]

Holy sh!~t Greg,,

you really do live in a bubble. If the best principle you can come up with to to live by is "what ever is best for me,,, today" then you deserve the pain that's gonna be infilcted. and it will your airline is toast.

I guess it's no surprise coming from a guy who was a campaign worker for a federal Reform candidate. The only thing worse for organised labor in aviation than Reform ( aka Canadian Alliance ) is the ACPA. Lunn is the Canadian equivilant of Sen. McCain. Final offer arbitration for all federal labor disputes. Yiiiiikes. You really have lost touch with how you got to be where you are.

I just hope that when you guys finaly light the fuse on the C-4 pack you keep strapping on (or more likely the creditors light the fuse for you ) we will be outta of blast range.

Lord help me if age and "experience" turn me into you.

[Guest GDR]

Hi Richard

Once again I'll repeat that I know that the Keller award is going to have a far greater affect on you than it will on me.

From what you have said, I would imagine that when the Keller award is released I will come to the conclusion that it is unfair to the original AC pilot group. I also believe that CR bargained in bad faith with ACPA by making an agreement with ALPA that contravened the ACPA contract.

I don't know what your seniority number is, but I would think that in your case you will be relegated to the bottom of the list or maybe even laid off. So what do you do? Do you throw out the baby with the bath water?

In the big picture should we as a group put thousands of people on the street because we don't like the way CR negotiated with us or because we don't like the result of the Keller award? We are all individually going to have to face that decision in the near future.

It is fine to blame everything on the company, or on Keller, but we have to deal with the situation as it is now, and we have come up with a yes or no decision based on the present situation. Frankly I don't like it, and I know you don't, but it is coming down to us whether we like it or not.

Frankly, I’m not sure we should be talking about lines in the sand. If I was to be knocked from my present position to last on the list or even laid off I still would not think that it would be right to cause the company to liquidate with the resulting devastation in people’s lives.

I believe that if we turn this down the company will liquidate. If I'm right, what then. From the little I know of you I would guess that you have other options than a job with AC. Many AC employees don't.

And in the end, what will we have gained?

Greg

[Guest Peanuts]

"ACPA felt it was unfair and was able to back out of it"

ACPA, ACPA, ACPA...bla, bla, bla,....

Was the first merger REALLY unfair ? Or was it just not NEEDED anymore ?

And the second, well we all know the story there too, don't we ?

Oh please, you are not the only person affected by as you would call it "unfair" happenings !

Life is Life,...the alternate is not pretty !

enjoy your family, your health, elininate the "oh woe is me" attitude

[DEFCON]

"ACPA has been involved in 2 merger negotiations. In the first case the AC pilot group felt the award was unfair and was able to back out of the agreement."

You haven't backed out of anything yet my friend!

[B75/76]

"Mergers are hopefully to come out with a solution that doesn't damage one's career potential or give someone a windfall gain."

So with the Mitchnik awarded seniority a CAI pilot with 20+ years ends up junior to an AC pilot with +/- 6 yrs. Who's career potential was damaged and who will come out smelling of roses?

Exclude the "We took them over and they were failing." argument. If I recall neither company was performing very well, it's just AC could lose $ longer. If not for the protective ownership legislation the roles may well have been reversed.

There will never be complete happiness whichever way it turns out, probably as it should be. It seems AC pilots would only be happy with CAI to the bottom of the list and CAI only happy with pure DOH.

[Guest GDR]

Good evening to you too Kal

I don't believe that an agreement should be based on self interest. What I'm saying is, that is the method that we currently employ. I don't like that method and I would like to see us come up with something that works better for everyone.

We should be able to sit down and hammer out our differences and come to a decision that involves compromise on both sides. It has been done. I assume that you fly for JAZZ. You guys were able to put your lists together and hats off to you.

Unfortunately most mergers have been resolved with the help of an arbitrator which involves both sides bringing in a team of negotiators who aren't there to come to a compromise, but who are there to get the best deal possible for their members.

At any rate nobody has a lock on what is fair or just and so we will probably carry on the way we are.

By the way yes, Gary is a friend of mine.

Greg Robinson

[DEFCON]

Picher did not put any regional person in a position that put them in the left seat of a 340.

Because it was ACPA's way or no way we're all here today!

[Guest GDR]

I'm not saying that life is unfair, and I'm certainly not saying woe is me. I have been extremely fortunate in my career. I was one of the lucky few who was in the right place at the right time.

I think that ACPA members have often not made the effort to understand the position of others, but I also think that the opposite is true as well.

Greg

[Guest GDR]

For Defcon and B75/76

My post was not about Picher or the CAIL/AC merge. I was only talking hypothetically.

[Guest Bat]

Richard:

Strongly suggest you heed Dave's advice. Typw whatever makes you feel better, just don't hit the Post Message button. You'll feel better and so will many others.

1) I cannot see how 800-900 numbers is even mathematically possible after Mitchnick. ie. IF a mid-seniority pilot had 700 CAIL guys placed ahead of him by Mitchnick, where do the next 800 come from?

2) CAIL retirements being applied to CAIL pilots only violates what Lordon states. In essence he says that once the lists are merged (Oct 2000 effectively), anything that happens to the group going forward happens to the group collectively/equally. This must include retirements.

Crying "WOLF" right now will not bring down anyone's stress level. Let's just wait for the official document before raining on the parade.

B

[Guest Bat]

Richard:

Strongly suggest you heed Dave's advice. Type whatever makes you feel better, just don't hit the Post Message button. You'll feel better and so will many others.

1) I cannot see how 800-900 numbers is even mathematically possible after Mitchnick. ie. IF a mid-seniority pilot had 700 CAIL guys placed ahead of him by Mitchnick, where do the next 800 come from?

2) CAIL retirements being applied to CAIL pilots only violates what Lordon states. In essence he says that once the lists are merged (Oct 2000 effectively), anything that happens to the group going forward happens to the group collectively/equally. This must include retirements.

Crying "WOLF" right now will not bring down anyone's stress level. Let's just wait for the official document before raining on the parade.

B

[Guest Wilky]

Greg,

You have asked a few times now,"should we as a group put thousands of people on the street because we don't like the way CR negotiated with us or because we don't like the result of the Keller award?". The simple answer could be yes! A conroversial point to be sure, but RR makes a good case for "If you haven't got your line in the sand, if you don't know where your limit for punishment is, you will keep receiving it forever."

I suggest it is not about putting others out of work, but rather, how far are we willing to let our careers slide. I am not a regular poster but have been reading a lot lately. It is dissappointing to see the vitriol among colleagues, but I subscribe to the theory that if it gets bad enough, quit! I intend to vote no to the TA and if that means doing something else, I think I'd rather. I wasn't born with a silver spoon. I do not have anything other than some conservative planning to fall back on and the amount 'on the line' is enormous. But, and it is a huge but, I would rather make the adjustment to less and start building on it now than tell this company that the pilots are open to concessions whenever they claim the need. I simply don't trust them. If this TA is ratified, it will spell the end of reasonable career expectations for ALL AC pilots with more than just a couple of years left. I'm 38 and not willing to muddle through the rest of my career because I was too scared to say NO.

Drew Wilkinson

[Guest coaster]

Greg; I think Richard is looking at the big picture from his point of view. unlike yourself he is not about to retire in the next 2 years or less. He and we have our own responsibilities to look out for.

putting 30,000 other A/C employees into the argument is also out of context. If the award is as he describes I am glad he is bringing it to our attention.

About Tribalisam maybe it should have stopped long ago. We have been negotiating with the connectors and CAIL since 1990.

[Guest GDR]

Hi Drew

>>If this TA is ratified, it will spell the end of reasonable career expectations for ALL AC pilots with more than just a couple of years left.<<

If we turn down this TA, and the company is liquidated the best pay and working conditions in Canada will be either Air Transat or West Jet. Everyone put out on the street by this will be out scrambling for jobs at either their rates or less.

Right now I don't see a reasonable choice. Yes, you will be taking a hit, but at least you are still alive to fight another day. The hit that we are taking is somewhere around 25%. That is substantial. Hopefully a good part of that will be recovered through profit sharing, but there is no guarantee.

With the lets in working conditions and the cut in pay we are still better off than any other carrier in Canada. UAL and AA have just had to take bigger hits, and we are working in a tougher environment now than they are thanks to SARS.

When you talk about career expectations, I have to believe that the only career expectations that will be advanced by us voting no are the good folk at West Jet, Air Tranasat, Skyservice etc.

I understand what you are saying when you talk about just where you personally draw the line, but I still feel that we do have to look at the larger picture.

You and Richard have valid points, but I just believe that we are between a rock and a hard place. I don't see any up side to voting no.

Thanks for the tone of your post, and thanks for sticking your name to it.

Greg

[Guest neo]

Bat,

You're free to believe or disbelieve the information I've provided. I'm faithfully passing on the information I've received without embellishment. If fact, I've definitely softened the tone of what I've been told. I have no way of verifying the accuracy of the information, but I believe it to be credible. That's all I have to offer for you or anyone.

Of course, we have no way of knowing who YOU are or your motive for saying what you're saying. On the other hand, you know who I am as does everyone here, and my motives are all up front. Tell us your real name, and your motives, and then your advice may have credibility. Until then, your comments bring no significant contribution to the matter.

[Guest GDR]

You are absolutely right, you guys have a lot more guys have your your own responsibilities and have years ahead of you.

I have tried to discuss this whole thing objectively.

I just don't see how anyone is going to be further ahead in the long run. Everyone well be left scrambling around looking for jobs with wages and working conditions far below what we would still have after ratification, if this airline liquidates.

Greg

[Guest neo]

Hi Greg,

If I may remind you I asked you the question, "At what point is enough, enough"? At what point do YOU say, "Beyond this I will not go."? Would you accept ANY deal, no matter how horrible, to keep Air Canada afloat? If there's an Air Canada employee alive who can answer 'yes' to that question, then let him, or her, cast the first stone.

The point I'd like to make is that there isn't a single Air Canada employee who would not reach his or her limit at some point. As it turns out, some employees have not, but some have. Not a single one of those employees who've maxed out are one iota less deserving of a job than anyone else. And every single one of them gets a vote, just like everyone else. If the idea is that you should go away rather than vote NO, what is the point of having a vote at all?

Please pardon the pedantic tone, but let me provide you with a little definition:

professional- noun

1. member of profession: somebody whose occupation requires extensive education or specialized training

2. somebody doing something as paid job: somebody who is engaged in an occupation as a paid job rather than as a hobby

3. somebody very competent: somebody who shows a high degree of skill or competence

And now one more:

martyr- noun

1. somebody put to death: somebody who chooses to die rather than deny religious or political beliefs

2. somebody who makes sacrifices: somebody who makes sacrifices or suffers greatly in order to advance a cause or principle

3. somebody in pain: somebody who experiences frequent or constant pain as a result of something

4. somebody seeking attention: somebody who complains a great deal in order to get sympathy from others

Do you notice any place that those two definitions converge? Neither do I.

Is it the pilots' collective responsibility to rescue Air Canada, regardless of the consequences to those individuals? I don't believe so, and I don't see how anyone can make a valid argument that it is, not the least because no other group would take on such an onerous burden either. So all we're talking about is what amount of damage will make each of us break.

You haven't reached yours, and I think it's only reasonable to note that you retire in but a few months. Regardless of how much punishment your colleagues take under Keller, it will have no effect on you at all. I can only respectfully ask that you continue to keep that in mind when you consider the answer to my question: "At what point do you say, enough is enough."?

Best wishes,

Richard

[Guest GDR]

Hi Richard

I am retiring around the end of the year. The Keller award is going to have little, if any, affect on me. I have just tried to make my point objectively. My personal position does not negate anything I have to say any more than we should ignore the opinion of someone who will be laid off as a result of the Keller award.

I don't like what CR did in agreeing to the JAZZ contract that contravened ours. I think that it was totally wrong headed and frankly I think that it was a stupid thing to do. Right now, as I understand it, which group flies aircraft over 55 seats will be decided by an arbitrator. Nothing is cast in stone. If the company liquidates those jobs won’t exist at all.

The Keller award is a separate issue. It was going to happen whether the company was in CCAA or not.

I frankly don’t know what line would have to be crossed before I would see the company shut down before I would accept it. It’s a hypothetical situation that you are asking me to respond to. I suppose that the most likely answer would be if I thought that the company was jeopardising the safe operation of my flight. I have made that stand before.

I am not in any way suggesting that people don’t have the right to vote no. I’m just asking, what is gained by voting no? How does it advance our profession. I don’t understand what you are getting at when you refer to martyrdom. How will you, I or anyone else be better off if this airline liquidates. Everyone will be scrambling for jobs that pay less money and have poorer working conditions, that is if they are fortunate enough to get back into a cockpit at all.

I repeat, what is gained by voting no?

Greg

[Guest windi]

Bat,

One quick question for you. Ar you ex-CAIL or original AC?

Thanks,

W

[Guest Bat]

Neo,

"I have no way of verifying the accuracy of the information, but I believe it to be credible."

I'm sorry, I missed the part about your motivation in posting rumours and hearsay.

Mine is common sense and consideration for those who have enough stress in their lives right now based on facts without the additional and unnecessary burden of rumour and fear mongering.

I fail to see how an alarmist approach to this matter serves purpose without FACTS!

Who knows, maybe one of the "journalistic elite" that choose do their research on the AEF will scoop another quote from you to fill their column.

Carry on as you wish.

B

PS Santa Claus YES/NO?

Just Kidding! :~)

[Guest Bat]

Does it matter?

The facts don't change either way.

I'd like the facts and common sense to stop this internal sodomization amongst the pilots of not only AC, but the country. Unfortunately, when you allow emotion and expectation to cloud the view, you generally don't get very far.

Throw out the BS/HS and baggage and use simple math sort it out. Simple meaning +-X/, NO emotional BS, NO "I think(s)", or "well buts", just simple math.

B

[Guest Bat]

Does it matter?

The facts don't change either way.

I'd like the facts and common sense to stop this internal buggery amongst the pilots of not only AC, but the country. Unfortunately, when you allow emotion and expectation to cloud the view, you generally don't get very far.

Throw out the BS/HS and baggage and use simple math sort it out. Simple meaning +-X/, NO emotional BS, NO "I think(s)", or "well buts", just simple math.

B

[cp fa]

That's fine Richard, but I would just like to remind you that 3 weeks ago, the details of your tentative agreement, which was coincidentally also covered by a gag order, was posted here. The information turned out to be full of inaccuracies.

[Guest rance]

Hi Greg;

"Unfortunately most mergers have been resolved with the help of an arbitrator"

yes and most groups, except acpa, actually live up to what the arbitrator rules.

Greg you talk about what's fair for acpa regarding senority issues.I want you to specifically address what acpa did to the regional pilots walking away from picher (sp?). You always seem to duck that topic.