Guest WA777 Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Hard to believe that one person alone, after all AC has been through, holds the future of the company in his hands......His badly flawed and unfair decision will wipe out the careers of thousands...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CarryOn Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Why this week? Why not wait until after all the groups have ratified. I cannot see one good reason to cause this termoil, we have enough going on. Also, unless it is complete DOH ( which Lourdon said in his decsion was not the way to go) The Ex CP guys will never be happy and ACPA is going to appeal if the ruling is as bad as you are all saying anyway. So why now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 As I said above...how could Keller in his right mind release the CAIL award under the current cicumstances and not consider the implications of his timing?....I guess when you have not really thought things through, it all seems to fit.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Exactly...how could Keller in his right mind release the CAIL award under the current circumstances and not consider its' implications or the timing?....I guess when you have not really thought things through, it all seems to fit.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest erialx Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 There is always plan B. Move the domestic flying to Jazz and rebuild from there. Have fun collecting UI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buskipper Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 erial, Actually, I think that is plan A. One of the truly valid reasons to sink this deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest b52er Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 He is considering the implications. He is saying........this is the way it will be......accept it and vote accordingly. That is precisely what he is doing. If someone does not make a decision.....then you continue to wallow around in the mud at various other groups expense. It is a strategy to keep the deadline in place. He is sending the message.....and very clearly. Get it over and done with, one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACguy Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I agree that the gravity of the situation is incomprehensible. You must remember Justice Farely is the one who is responsible. It was Farely who allowed the proceedings during the CCAA. If I were Justice Farely I would have put a stay on proceedings until the TA was signed. The system is flawed severly. They say the ideal solution is when no one is happy. Well thanks to Calin, Milton, Farely, Winkler, Keller, Mitchnik, Picher and Collenette they have won hands down. The entire pilot group hate the people the work for. Most of us are beside ourselves and actually in a dangerous lasie-faire attitude towards this TA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I don't think 24 hours will go by after a rejection before the liquidation order goes out. You just don't seem to get it; Air Canada continues to lose money by the potful, and the creditors will seek immediate closure. There is no fallback for a no vote, and there is no mechanism for renegotiating a seniority award. Not with the company anyway. What happens if there is a no vote? Think it through. Even if you are due to be laid off, are you better off competing for jobs with an extra 2000 pilots? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bugsy G Darren Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 And you hated your parents when you didn't get your way, but you got over it, these people, like your parents, are making the best decisions for the family (airline). Suck it up and get on with it. Bugs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Let's all take a pill here and calm down. Whatever any of us are hearing is not based on knowledge but based on rumor, speculation, innuendo, wishful thinking or a combination of some or all of these. Everyone going into the Keller process knew full well that there would be adjustments made that would advantage the ex-CP folks and disadvantage the AC folks versus what was decided by Mitchnick. The debate was on the degree of these "adjustments" NOT on whether the adjustments would be made. Before we all threaten to do things to each other we'd probably regret down the road, let's all just wait for the facts to come out and consider them rationally. No, I'm not an ex-CP person. All this talk of voting down the contract and forcing AC into bankruptcy only does one thing: it allows Jetsgo to grow (just like they're announcing tomorrow) at our expense because the public loses confidence in AC with every headline they read that we're not going to be around. So smarten up and wait for the facts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jeanmermoz Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 There is no difference competing against 400 now or 1500 in a couple of years or 3600 if liquidation happens next week or next month because there is barely no jobs. ACPA has met the monetary concessions of AC. AC, at no cost to them, could solve this incoming impasse very easily. The future of AC is not in the hands of ACPA it is in the hands of Milton, Farley and Lordon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 The future of AC is in the hands of the creditors, and the sooner that people start to get that the more likely that AC will survive the restructuring process. rudder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I don't see your logic at all. If you have 3800 pilots all on the market at once, that has to be the worst case scenario. You can expect to face even worse wages and probably have to fund your own training a la Jetsgo. The bigger the surplus, the more widely distributed the surplus geographically, the worse your situation by far. And there would be no AC to ever to recalled to. I can't think of a worse scenario than that. As for your contention that AC has to do something, how and what can it do legally? There is no money, and how is AC supposed to decide the seniority issue for you? Don't just give me rhetoric or expressions of hurt feelings, tell me how AC can settle the issue? How would it work? Do you mean Air Canada should not downsize? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Continuous Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 It will be interesting to see how judge Farley reacts to the threat of this impending Keller decision. How could he and the government stand by and watch an arbitrator's decision possibly short circuit the entire restructuring plan of Canada's national airline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigol Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 In my opinion, if anyone cares, this is how they will get the biggest bang for their buck. Keller awards DOH,ACPA votes no, and Jazz, gets more flying at lower costs. More return on investment for them. Someone below says that is plan A. I think he may be right. I said many many months ago...DIVIDED WE FALL AND NOW, MILTON AND CALIN ARE ALL SMILES...they have us where they want us. And who do we blame?...look in the mirror boys and girls. ACPA or ALPA or whomever, whether you are taking a paycut, or facing a layoff...we did this to ourselves. Good luck to all of us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Continuous Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Can a judge overide an arbitrator, in the best interests of the creditors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACguy Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 You are truly missing the point.If you believe that the board or any other person in this process is interested in the betterment of the employee, you are sadly misguided. I feel I can objectively interprete my tentative agreement when its placed on the table. However, I find it unsettling when I have the Pandora's box of scope and senority jammed down my throat at the same time. Too much is too much. (6) I, apparently much unlike you, am and individual and will continue to think for myself. "Sucking it up" is not in my character, ask my parents. I will understand and make sacrafices like all others. However, I will not be asked by ANYONE to make a disporpotionate contribution whereby it will set precedent for my "pending long career within the red and white". If you are content and prepared to live with your circumstances then I you should work on your power of pursuation. Consequences is my main concern for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACguy Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Farley should have stuck to the CCAA guidlines. All proceedings should have been halted until this process was completed. An exception like this could potentially become big headache and possible grounds for intervention by an alternate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goggles Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 "It will be interesting to see how judge Farley reacts to the threat of this impending Keller decision." The threat will have nothing to do with Keller. It will have to do with those who will be stupid enough to screw up their careers for good, just out of spite. You'll be flying mail between Hall Beach and Igloolik in the right seat if you're lucky. I wish anyone good luck getting a job with Emirates. If you ever beat the rest of the competition, I'm sure you'll cherish the harmonious labour relations there... not! Goggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goggles Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 "Can a judge overide an arbitrator, in the best interests of the creditors?" Following your logic, perhaps the judge should have overidden Mitchnick first. How would this have benefited the creditors? It wouldn't have. Which leads me to say that the best interests you're concerned about are your own, no more, no less. Goggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goggles Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 "There is no difference competing against 400 now or 1500 in a couple of years or 3600 if liquidation happens next week or next month because there is barely no jobs." Tell you what. Why don't you quit right now. You could get a jump on those who'd get layed off before you, and perhaps even the whole lot of us if the creditors pull the plug. If you care so little about your job, and if you don't ever want to return to it if you do get layed off, then it shouldn't be that difficult... or is it? Goggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Continuous Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 AC wasn't in bankrupcy protection at the time of the Mitchnick award. Are those anti-fog goggles you're wearing oh hostile one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I'm thinking you are all too smart for your own good. If AC was negotiating this against the backdrop of a reasonably sane marketplace, I would say, ya, they can whipsaw you, pull the wool over your eyes, and then move everything to Jazz because the customers will basically have nowhere to go. But with SARS, AC is losing so much money that the best thing for it now is to get on with a final restructuring and be able to sell tickets again. It must regain public confidence. I'm very pessimistic about AC's survival even if all labor agreements are approved AND the creditors have manure shoved down their throats. The sitiuation is dire and makes your pilot-centred concerns look extremely marginal in comparison. Milton's best play remains getting this restructuring through in the next 60 days while hoping that the SARS situation doesn't get worse. That's also your best hope. No matter how Machiavellian Milton and Rovinescu would like to be, no matter how shrewd they could be under optimal cicumstances, AC's very survival hinges on being able to recapture public confidence that it will not strand them in Timbuktu during the summer. It's as simple as that and all else is a mole hill in comparison to this mountain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bugsy G Darren Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I have a hard time with someone who waves the ACPA flag as someone who thinks for themselves, however since I do not know you, I will give you that benefit. As for your point on the disproportionate contribution, ACPA has had a gun levelled at the head of Air Canada for years therefore gaining disproportionate wage increases. You seriously don't think Air Canada could liquidate do you? You may soon be changing your moniker to "UIguy" But I hope not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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