John S. Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 With all the talk about Mr. Keller I have just GOT to ask - How could any list involving former CAIL pilots use DOH when the Canadian list was already so messed up that even the pope himself would have to seek higher authority to straighten it out? That being said, Richard you sure started another livley thread down below! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 From my understanding of judge Farley's order, it would stay any imposition of any government order detrimental to the process under way. Ergo, the decision to stay the Competition Tribunal case on predatory pricing. So Keller may have a decision, but can it be implemented any time soon, or could Farley put it into deep freeze for many months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Hi John, I'd like to take credit for getting this subject going, but I'm afraid that others broached the issue before me. All I've done is pass along information that I believe is credible to add substance to the rumors that are already flying. Individual readers are free to disbelieve, disregard, accept or act on the information as they see fit. The Keller award is likely to be released this week, so all doubt will be removed before long. Your post could perhaps explain why these things get a life of their own. I clearly said that (according to the information I received) the Keller award would not be based on a DOH solution. However, the solution he proposes would EFFECTIVELY give the CAIL pilots DOH seniority. The details, as they say, at 11. It's worth mentioning some background to this issue. The ACPA merger committee, in my understanding, expected the Keller review to result in some relatively minor rejigging to the Mitchnick-awarded seniority list, along with dropped fences, etc. If the information beginning to surface is correct, then the rejigging of the seniority list will be huge: but still not a DOH award per se. If the Keller award results in large changes to the Air Canada pilots' seniority list, I would expect the reaction to be of similar scale. Unfortunately, there may not be too many avenues for the original AC pilots to pursue, and those that they do have could encompass profound consequences. This development could not have come at a worse time for our corporation, in my view. Best wishes to you John, and hug your kids. Richard Roskell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Stayed order or not, pilots are highly adept at projecting seniority positions into the future. Air Canada's pilots will act now based on what they see occuring down the road, should Judge Farley simply delay an outcome. Pilots on the AC seniority list are looking thirty years down the road, dagger. Not just "many months." neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sustainable Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Given the massive amount of retraining to arise out of 350-400 layoffs and 200+ early retirement packages, the financial impact of training as a result of Keller being implemented will be minimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starman Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Good post Neo. Regardless of the formula that Keller is using for the award, there will undoubtedly be a "no bump, no flush" provision which will mean that there will be no financial implications to the company in implementing the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest driver340 Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Where have you seen anything written about early retirements for us, the short form of the contract adjustments had nothing written about early retirements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 Hi Richard, Thanks for the comments. You said .... I clearly said that (according to the information I received) the Keller award would not be based on a DOH solution..... My post was an akward way of agreeing. I don't see how anybody could take the former CAIL list and merge it DOH with any other list. On the other hand, I don't share the concern about this coming at the worst time for the corporation. In fact it may be the best time for the corporation. If the best paid pilots in the country working for the biggest airline in the country and under the leadership of the strongest union in the country can't sort out a little seniority list merge then perhaps the time for change has arrived. In fact I'm kinda hoping that ACPA does the old "let's appeal" to a higher court thing. Whilst your union is out throwing darts perhaps all the ALPA pilots in Canada will have an opportunity for a small advancement. After all, as I said before, we managed to merge four lists with only six months of bitching, not the six year war you have going. That otta count for something in the creditors good books. And what's good for the creditors will eventually be good for the corporation. Follow my dirft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 I understand that the implications of awards are studied to death by pilots, who project themselves some day flying a left seat in a 747. But if stayed means unpublished, unreleased, undisclosed, undiscovered - in essence, an unreport - that debate cannot take place except in Rumorville. So you cannot be influenced for or against a tentative agreement based on a non-report. You can be influenced by what is in the actual agreement. And several months or a year is an eternity in this business. A year ago, Air Canada not only flew 747s, but it looked like a sure bet to fly the A340-500s and -600s. Now it looks like a sure bet - assuming it survives at all which is very much doubtful until the SARS scare is wrestled to the ground - that AC will have one or two large fleets of mid-sized widebodies. So things change - and pilots retire (or go fly for Saudia or Emirates). And a year from now, if there is an Air Canada, we may find ourselves in the midst of a booming world economy with lots of potential for new international flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Hmm, normally your outlook is a lot more realistic, and a lot less dependent on some hypothetical outcome based on wishful thinking. Will Mr. Keller be releasing his award only to Justice Farley, who will then keep it under wraps until such time as he deems it auspicious to release? I don't know if that's the plan, but the cat's squirming out of the bag right now, so what would be the point? You're absolutely right that a year or two is an eternity in this business, but unless you're willing to forego all expectations of the future, only a fool would ignore what is happening today. Having said that, it might be a wise philosophy to urge on anyone contemplating a career in aviation. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I sure do, John. And it's a very valid one. Is there anyone in this industry who doubts that "What goes around, comes around..."? The JAZZ pilots have been down so long, even the bottom looks like up. If they can cut a deal for themselves that bypasses all the mainline mess, then power to 'em. BUT! If I may be so presumptuous to point it out again, what goes around, comes around. If you become the best paid pilots working for the biggest company in the strongest union in the country, the pendulum will inevitably swing once more. Enjoy it while you can. Richard Roskell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Neo Why is labour negotiating all the hits without having all the cards on the table? (ie: repeal the ACPP Act and come clean re CDN acquisition prior to negotiating labour hits) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AME Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I'm just a little curious as to how you figure there should be any financial implications for the company because of a re-structured seniority list???? This was the unions baby right from the start and any re-training, by-pass pay etc... as a result of a new list should be the responsiblity of the union. Of course this doesn't include positions that are awarded as a result of a bid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Labor is negotiating without having all the cards on the table because labor doesn't have the leverage to force all the cards on the table. We're like the player in poker who folded without forcing the other to reveal his cards. You'll never know what he held. However, it's not fair to suggest that only labour is taking the hits. Shareholders and creditors are being savaged as well. (Note to future employees in this position: take a Clever Plan directly to the shareholders and creditors.) neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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