dozerboy Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I have had a couple of beers but I am certainly not wasted. Oh and by the way, are you planning on running next elections? Not that I have talked to a majority of the pilots, but the ones that I have talked to, look forward to your leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACguy Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Either way, AC was out of cash. Yes, there were some completely unpredictable world events beyond anyones control. I am not looking to place blame, but I hardly think ACPAs actions were unreasonable. Examine historical precendence. Better yet give me an example of managements good faith towards the pilot group. The have asked for several concessions in our contract which they agreed to and actually requested a much greater than five year deal. We have introduced lets to show flexibility in LCC flying and at one time summer of 2000 allowed an increase in productivity based on the ideals of new aircraft and routes(read jobs). Further, we now have negotiated a let for reduced flying. A great many olive branch have been extended to embrace our leaders only to find that branch stuffed in locations unmentionable. Examples, a re-interpretation of pay protection, delay tactics for required 321 pay scale adjustments, attempt at giving our jobs away to skyservice/roots air, utilizing every equipment bid as leverage to renegotiate our contract(requesting LOU), and now our pension is all but a pipe dream. How about an example of good faith whereby ACPA could place faith in the words of our CEO? The adverserial positons exemplified by ACPA and senior management is a result of recent past relations and therefore due diligence was a prudent move. If I asked you to help me out with a few bucks as I am in a tight spot, I would do everything in my power to help convinence you of my plight. Why was the company not forthcoming in presenting a confidential overview of the balance sheet? The fact of the matter is we ALL make our bed and must lay in it. The time for reconciliation is now and we must mend our wounds. The time for honesty, integrity, and plain old fashioned hard work has come. We must place faith in our leaders and they must place stock in us to get the job done. We need to win everyone of our customers back and rise like The Phoenix from the ashes of CCAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skirt Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Neo, I know you are stating things about all unions, but I write things from my perspective. I only know ACPA, so I don't want to get into the CAW or CUPE etc stuff since I have no Idea what goes on at those Unions. You and I will have to disagree on whether the company "opened" the books as you say, but we'll leave it at that. You are right about the March 15th deadline though, but that doesn't explain why AC didn't help with the Due Dil. after the 15th. Did they give up? Maybe the were to busy preparing the 300+ page document the filed on April 1st. I don't know. As for Slamming someone, I was refering to definition #4. From Merriam-Webster: Main Entry: 3slam Function: verb Inflected Form(s): slammed; slam·ming Date: circa 1691 transitive senses 1 : to strike or beat hard : KNOCK 2 : to shut forcibly and noisily : BANG 3 a : to set or slap down violently or noisily b : to propel, thrust, or produce by or as if by striking hard 4 : to criticize harshly intransitive senses 1 : to make a banging noise 2 : to function (as in moving) with emphatic and usually noisy vigor 3 : to utter verbal abuse or harsh criticism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Dragon Overall, pensions have become the main issue. Last week in the G & M there was an article about pension liabilities, and in it they mentioned that even at G.M.($25 Billion) and Ford($18 Billion) they are grappling with the issues of pension liabilities. Even two weeks ago on CNBC's program Kudlow and Kramer they interviewed the CEO of Continental(who hasn't filed for protection yet) and even he mentioned that pensions were a big problem and that they were moving to go to a Direct Contribution plan from a Defined Benefit Plan. The quote I remember most clearly from him was, "Why should we be responsible for our employees 35 years down the road?" This just goes to show that the American way of doing business it to maximise profit at all costs, without regard for the the welfare of the people who made it possible. Wasn't it conditions similar to this that led to the General Strikes at the turn of the last century? Are we getting there again..... Just points for consideration. Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I knew that .... at least at one time Darn senior moments. Thanks for the mental jog. (Y) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Hi skirt, Thanks for your comments. I think I understood your intent on the "slamming" issue. I hope you will be able to see mine. The definition you intended was to "criticize harshly." I repeat, the worst criticism I stated was that the unions responded slowly, at best. That's an accurate statement, and certainly not harsh by any definition that I'm aware of. Yes, I am right about our union not getting the Due Diligence under way until after the deadline that Mr. Milton had given to have deals in place. I know this because it was stated in information sent out to all ACPA members by our union. The question that all ACPA members should be asking themselves is, "Were my interests served by such a slow response to an obvious crisis?" I think it's pretty obvious why management spent little energy on due diligence after March 15th. By that time, every major union at Air Canada, with the possible exception of the CAW, had shown little interest in negotiating anything like what Mr. Milton had requested. On the contrary, the leaders of most unions, our own included, publicly commented on waiting until AC went into bankruptcy before they would consider negotiating. Don't you think that's a pretty clear messge to management that there was little relief to be expected from the labor side? By the way, as food for thought, is it not saying something when when the union most willing to act is Mr. Buzz Hargrove's CAW? And I think you're absolutely right. After March 15th, our senior management was too busy preparing for a CCAA filing to put a lot of effort into due diligence. Best wishes, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Iceman, Yes it is quite disturbing isn't it. With intentional theft from employees, along with legally supported disregard of employees pensions, it is quite obvious that corporations are happy to use your services of a working lifetime in order to profit financially, with little or no regard for the people that helped the arrive there. Nice to see a few of those b*stards going to jail, hope that is a sign of the times as well. Something has to change. cheers commrade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Look dozerboy, I'd really like to stop bandying words with you. It's not my wish to alienate anyone. If I've given you any personal slight, I apologize. We have a difference of opinion on this matter. I believe in speaking out about topics of this sort; you'd prefer that I didn't. We're each entitled to our opinion. But your belief that I am anti-union, anti-ACPA, or anti- anything other than impending poverty is simply incorrect. I can't be more clear than that. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Neo, I am sure in the end, our goal is similar...a stable Air Canada and a stable job. We obviously have different viewpoints as to why we got here and how to deal with it. Difficult times for all involved. Dozerboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 HI ACGuy, I won't quibble over some of the details with which you and I disagree, because I see that we are on precisely the same page as to the way forward. You said, "The fact of the matter is we ALL make our bed and must lay in it. The time for reconciliation is now and we must mend our wounds. The time for honesty, integrity, and plain old fashioned hard work has come. We must place faith in our leaders and they must place stock in us to get the job done. We need to win everyone of our customers back and rise like The Phoenix from the ashes of CCAA." As I stated, I could not agree with you more. And how does reconciliation come about, ACGuy? What does it mean to be honest, to show integrity? For myself, it means recognizing and accepting responsibility for my part, and our collective part, in this situation. It means owning up to times when we have acted in ways that have made our relationship with the employer worse. It means being rigorously honest about what we have failed to do that we could have done. Being honest about management's failings isn't a matter of integrity; being honest about our own, is. That's why I point out the things that I do. Best wishes, Richard Roskell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Yes indeed, these are difficult times. And you couldn't be more right, that in the end our goal's must surely be similar. To the degree that our viewpoints differ along the way, I believe that our union and our profession is capable of accomodating a wide range of opinion on the matter. In fact, I believe they will both be stronger for doing so. Thanks for offering yours. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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