Guest neo Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 I'm his evil twin. And you would be dozerboy's nine year old, hijacking his computer? neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 dragon, "The spin I’ve accepted is that Robert Milton, purposely, consciously and with much deceit, has watched the employee pension plans deteriorate to a tune of 2.5 Billion under funded." Would you like to explain that remark? neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Neo, With due respect for your obvious intelligence; Your views, speaking to the CCAA process and eventual filing, as well as the intended goals of all involved, strike me as mysteriously slanted, especially given your ability and your efforts to continually explore the edge of an issue as much as the heart. Why do you not obviously find other, inclusive responsibilities as others certainly are present? Kind regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Pam Sachs, is that you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 dragon, If my views appear "mysteriously slanted", please let me know in what way. I'll be happy to clear up any mystery about why I think the way I do, or just what my slant is. Would you mind being more specific about what you mean by these "inclusive responsibilities" that I should find to do? Thanks. As to the heart or edge of an issue, that's what perspective is all about, isn't it? What may look like the edge to you might look very much like the heart to me. But I don't ask you to share my perspective; I simply offer it for your consideration. You're free to disagree, or ignore, or accept in whole or in part what I say. Furthermore, if my perspective is skewed, my reasoning faulty, my advice ill-considered, then feel free to refute any or all of it. What could be more reasonable than that? Best wishes, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 When did company pension contributions cease and why? What was the value, as it would pertain to an individual employee then? What is it today, not that it is specifically the 'fault' of AC. Why was this information not shared with the employees when it became obvious that contribution problems were arising? ACPA asked AC for complete financial information in early February. What they received was resistance, including withholding of ALL AC employee pension information. I am not a pension expert, did I miss anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 In what way and ‘inclusive responsibilities’?.. Your comments here, the past few months especially, though further back as well, overwhelmingly point to ACPA and the other unions at Air Canada as the main bearer of responsibility of the current problems challenging Air Canada. I believe that responsibility is shared and that as usual, though there is a heart of a matter, the heart is not always the epicentre. I am not so interested in refuting you as much as I wonder why to me at least, it seems as though you are as anti ACPA as some are anti Milton. Is the responsibility for the current relationship not shared and most importantly, would it not follow then that the by product of this relationship as well not shared? Remember, at one point in time, the employees and unions of Air Canada, would have done anything for and followed their leader anywhere. Again, kind regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 No I place her opinions just about on the same level as yours... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 My nine year old is smarter than me...he refuses to read your anti-ACPA posts any more. BTW, I sure hope that I see your name on the next ACPA ballots for YVR LEC. I look forward to hearing how you intend on moulding ACPA into your vision. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Now you have me confused. Dumb question I know but is it a MEC or a LEC or both????? ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Malcolm, LEC = Local Executive Council. Local at each pilot base, dependant on pilot numbers. MEC = Master Executive Council. A national council made up of the Local executive numbers, again, dependant on pilot numbers. Members of the LEC, who deal with local issues, make up the MEC which deals with National issues. dozerboy refers to neo joining his base LEC. Hope that helps, cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 dragon, I don't have answers to your questions, and I assume that you don't either or you wouldn't be asking them. However despite what seems to be your uncertainty around the issue, you appear to be alleging fraudulent behavior on the part of a named individual. Fraud is criminal behavior, and you REALLY want to have your ducks in a row before you make accusations of that sort. And of course the place to bring a matter like that, if you really believe it, is the police, not a public forum. Of course, that's just what it appeared like. That's why I asked you if you would like to clarify what you meant. Probably you weren't alleging anything of the sort, and would welcome the chance to make that clear. I'm honestly trying to be helpful, here. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 "Your comments here, the past few months especially, though further back as well, overwhelmingly point to ACPA and the other unions at Air Canada as the main bearer of responsibility of the current problems challenging Air Canada." You could never have come to such a conclusion by truly reading what I've said. Mr. Milton himself, in his address to our employees on February 6th, stated that the employees haven't done anything wrong. I agree with him. That anyone could think that ACPA and other unions are the main bearer of responsibility for AC's problems beggars the imagination. Such a perspective would be ludicrous, in my opinion. Like you, I believe that our unions share the responsibility for the predicament we are in. But unlike many, possibly including yourself, I do not believe in hiding from or refusing to speak about that responsibility. Unlike many, I do not insist on pointing the finger at the responsibity that others have. I am primarily interested in addressing OUR responsibility, and hopefully in encouraging others to do the same. Could I point to mistakes that I believe our management has made? Indeed I could. But to what end? I can't change management, because I'm not management. I'm rank and file, and that's where my responsibility lies and that's the responsibility I address. It's management's responsibility to clean up their problems, not mine. You and I, and many others and I, have a fundamental difference of opinion in this area. You believe that because I criticize a union's mistakes, that I am anti-union. This is like saying that because you criticize the leader of a democratic country, that you are anti-democratic. When will you people learn to differentiate between honest dissent and destructive undermining of our union? I am encouraged, and enormously thankful, that there are union members who can recognize the difference. I know this because they have told me so personally. Finally, admitting shared responsibility DOES NOT MEAN that you get to point the finger elsewhere. Admitting shared responsibility is the first step in CLEANING UP YOUR OWN ACT. PERIOD. Once you've done that, you have the right to start pointing fingers. Funny thing though... once you've cleaned up your own act you usually find that it's forced the other party to do likewise. There's nobody left to point fingers at, and that's a good thing. My primary interest is in encouraging Air Canada's employees to accept responsibility for their share of the problem, and to ACT ON THAT RESPONSIBILITY. As the representatives of our employees, I criticize our unions when they don't act on that responsibility, and I praise them when they do. It's that simple. Best wishes, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 "Your comments here, the past few months especially, though further back as well, overwhelmingly point to ACPA and the other unions at Air Canada as the main bearer of responsibility of the current problems challenging Air Canada." You could never have come to such a conclusion by truly reading what I've said. Mr. Milton himself, in his address to our employees on February 6th, stated that the employees haven't done anything wrong. I agree with him. That anyone could think that ACPA and other unions are the main bearer of responsibility for AC's problems beggars the imagination. Such a perspective would be ludicrous, in my opinion. Like you, I believe that our unions share the responsibility for the predicament we are in. But unlike many, possibly including yourself, I do not believe in hiding from or refusing to speak about that responsibility. Unlike many, I do not insist on pointing the finger at the responsibity that others have. I am primarily interested in addressing OUR responsibility, and hopefully in encouraging others to do the same. Could I point to mistakes that I believe our management has made? Indeed I could. But to what end? I can't change management, because I'm not management. I'm rank and file, and that's where my responsibility lies and that's the responsibility I address. It's management's responsibility to clean up their problems, not mine. You and I, and many others and I, have a fundamental difference of opinion in this area. You believe that because I criticize a union's mistakes, that I am anti-union. This is like saying that because you criticize the leader of a democratic country, that you are anti-democratic. When will you people learn to differentiate between honest dissent and destructive undermining of our union? I am encouraged, and enormously thankful, that there are union members who can recognize the difference. I know this because they have told me so personally. Finally, admitting shared responsibility DOES NOT MEAN that you get to point the finger elsewhere. Admitting shared responsibility is the first step in CLEANING UP YOUR OWN ACT. PERIOD. Once you've done that, you have the right to start pointing fingers. Funny thing though... once you've cleaned up your own act you usually find that it's forced the other party to do likewise. There's nobody left to point fingers at, and that's a good thing. My primary interest is in encouraging Air Canada's employees to accept responsibility for their share of the problem, and to ACT ON THAT RESPONSIBILITY. As the representatives of our employees, I criticize our unions when they don't act on that responsibility, and I praise them when they do. It's that simple. Best wishes, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that most nine year-olds can tell the difference between honest criticism and destructive bashing. If your child is as smart as you say, and I've no reason to doubt you, then he or she would have no difficulty recognizing what I do. As for moulding ACPA into my own vision, doing so would be completely contrary to my beliefs. ACPA doesn't need some individual, or some group of individuals, moulding it into their idea of a union. That's what we already have. What ACPA needs is enough people to speak out for change, and for that change to come from the grass-roots. You see, I don't just pay lip-service to the concept of grass-roots activism. I live it and long for it. As it stands I may be a one man grass root, but buddy, if you knew ANYTHING about what makes democracy tick, you would be nurturing me like a prize rose. Best wishes, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skirt Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Neo, You stated: "Sorry ACGuy, I can't agree with that perspective. Mr. Milton personally asked the employees, through their unions, to negotiate and he asked the unions to do it "FAST": his emphasis, not mine. That was February 6th. You cannot characterize the response from our unions as anything other than slow, at best." ACPA then said we will, as soon as we do a Due Diligence. The Co. said O.K. no prob... Almost 2 months later, still no Due Dil on account of no co-operation from the co. (not ACPA) I for one am glad ACPA is representing me. They also agreed to a last min 22% pay reduction along with some very reasonable strings attached. Not to mention the handfull of LOU's in the last few years. This is not the 1st time you have slammed ACPA. Could you kindly explain why you have such an apparent disdain for our union and perhaps show some examples of how they have let us down in this process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Dragon et all, you can point fingers all you want, but as Judge Farley has pointed out, it's time to talk turkey. In the past three or so weeks, since this has been in bankruptcy court, we have only heard from the unions what management can or cannot do. With all due respect, now is the time to talk about what can be done, what should be done. Otherwise, very shortly, the monitor will inform the judge about the failure of negotiations. And from there, it is a mere formality to petition the company into bankruptcy, i.e. liquidation. Now, I know you don't want that. But the question remains, when will the unions actually try to negotiate? Or are they sitting around in DENIAL, waiting for somebody, anybody, to get them off the hook of having to make tough recommendations. The Feds aren't coming with a bag of cash. The Creditors aren't going to take a big haircut by themselves Th Judge won't be inclined to reward intransigence (from either side) So who is going to come riding over the horizon and keep all of your jobs, wages and benefits untouched? Come on Dragon, who is YOUR white knight (pun intended)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 As you know, Pension contributions by the company were suspended, by powers of the administration, following legal options, shortly after Sept 11, 2001. The reason was that at that point, being tied to the value of the markets, the fund was in a surplus position. Due to recent events, along with the devaluation of the markets, the pension fund at AC has assumed a deficit, a deep deficit. Maybe Robert didn’t know this?.. ACPA specifically asked for ALL financial information as part of the due diligence, including all AC pension information. To my understanding, this information was not forthcoming. Today, the pension of Air Canada employees sits at a reported 2.5 billion deficit, this did not happen overnight, as well, it is my guess that a conscious decision was made somewhere along the line to not arbitrarily resume company contributions. These are the facts as I have read them, I suppose I could be wrong, especially if the information reported in newspapers and court documents is in error. My assumption that Robert Milton should have known the status of the pension is as well an assumption for I believe that as CEO of the company, he should have been made aware of the growing deficit. Of course as you say, I have no way to know that for sure, I hope that with so many other factors in the current situation, these concerns are brought to light and responsible people held accountable for their actions. And, I purposely wrote that it is the spin I HAVE ACCEPTED as opposed to the truth that I KNOW to be true. I doubt that would amount to much in a court room in Canada but I appreciate the reminder. Kind regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Neo, Thanks for enlightening me as to what a democracy really is. I knew all those political science courses were a joke. "Comrade" Dozer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 neo Reference the initial few paragraphs; You know I am opinionated, you also know I am open minded, you also know that I am not alone in this opinion, you also know that I share your principles on democracy and finally, that I too share your periodic frustrations with some recent, and not so recent, developments within our association, that is not my point. I garner an opinion from many of your posts. I am not talking about the employees. Mr. Milton repeatedly, selectively and publicly, denounces ACPA and the often good intent of ACPA. Save for a 180 day promise, I can think of not one single example of Robert Milton, or his executive, [even with the OSC debacle, as a matter of fact, he publicly stated and was quoted, that in his mind he did nothing wrong] admitting to or accepting ANY responsibility for actions either recent or past, that is to the best of my recollection. You have misinterpreted my comments WRT union criticism and the connection to anti-union. I am broad enough to understand the difference, that was not the thrust of my response to you. As to your comments about responsibility of our own actions, we are essentially in agreement. I don’t call it pointing fingers; I call it an owning of responsibility, a sharing of responsibility and an honest effort to repair that relationship for the betterment of all. Withholding information and public denouncement is not, in my opinion, the way to go. Kind regards, dagger, WRT pointing fingers, please see above. To the general theme of the remainder of your post; I understand that at times, I come across as anything but cooperative with the company, this could not be farther from the truth. Personally, what motivates me to do my best is to be in a relationship that encourages my best, that relationship either with myself or a partner or partners. I believe this is a widely held notion, regardless of colour, political affiliation etc, it is human nature. I am tired of reading AC rants denouncing my elected officials and again, I believe many others do as well? This is nothing honourable and it receives the exact reaction you would think it would. I do not have nor am I expecting a white night dagger [didn’t get it by the way, tired I suppose]. I’m with you, time has passed, we have one final opportunity to get it right. I encourage all involved to get it right and that includes my association, even, and particularly, if that means going first. I hope our situation improves and I am confident we will do fine. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 and thats my last word, nighty night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skirt Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Dagger, Have you not been paying attention these last few weeks. (not meant as a slam, just couldn't figure out a better way to say it, sorry) A few days after CCAA was filed (not sure the exact date, sorry) the game plan was laid out for the CCAA process. In this game plan, the unions and AC were to begin negots on May 1st (yesterday). This is indeed what has happened. So for now, everyone is on schedule (for lack of a better term). And as far as hearing from unions, plse don't go by what is written in the Globe & Fail or the National Pravda! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skirt Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Sorry, April 30th was yesterday, not May 1st. My bad! Must....., get......, head......., out....., of......., ass........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Maybe not a joke, but evidently wasted. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Hi skirt, You wrote, "This is not the 1st time you have slammed ACPA. Could you kindly explain why you have such an apparent disdain for our union and perhaps show some examples of how they have let us down in this process?" I'd be happy to explain, but first let's clarify some misconceptions you have. To begin, how can anything I wrote in that post be characterized as "slamming" anything or anyone? My harshest criticism was that our unions' responses were "slow, at best." Is that your idea of slamming something, to attack something violently? The second misconception you have is that I've attacked ACPA. I didn't single out any union in my comments, and in particular I didn't single out ACPA. My comments addressed the behavior of all the major unions at Air Canada during the period in question. As for how you've been let down in this process, here is my understanding of the events. On February 6th, 2003, Mr. Milton asked the employees of Air Canada, through their unions, to negotiate due to our company's dire financial circumstances. He did not mince words in the slightest, but he was at pains to show that he did not blame the employees for the situation. HE was the one who opened the books to US. The deadline he gave for needing to have a new working relationship hammered out was March 15th. By that date, despite having had the offer to look at the books since February 6th, ACPA had not even started to look at them. The reason why ACPA had not started to look at them had everything to do with ACPA's own choices, and nothing to do with Air Canada not co-operating. ACPA hadn't even chosen a forensic auditor until the week before. That, I'm sorry to say, are the facts. So, how have you been let down in this process? You were let down because, despite a clear and obvious danger concerning our employer's financial situation, and despite our employer pleading for quick action to avert a disaster, your union did not take the necessary action until it was too late. You're glad ACPA is representing you, and I'm glad you're glad. ACPA does some good things for our pilots, and there are many excellent people working in ACPA on our behalf. But collectively, our union let us down in this particular situation. The best interests of our membership would have been served by prompt examination of the books, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME negotiating without prejudice to see what management had in mind. That's all history now of course. But you asked how our union let us down in the process, and now you know. Best wishes, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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