Guest floatrr Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 "Your damn right Nav Canada has been cutting some fat. That's why sometimes your holding, or sometimes your number 20 for takeoff or sometimes you get a speed restriction, or sometimes...... We have become the valujet of Air Navigation Services. You want reduced user fees. Fine, then expect ATC delays." Right! Well air traffic has decreased exponentially since: 1.Sept 11th 2.Depressed economy. 3. War. 4. SARS. Have you checked out all the parked metal? Give it a shake. Yer workin cuz planes r flyin'. 20% wasn't enough of a cut as far as I'm concerned. But thats typical of any company with puppet strings attached to the federal government. Cut service and increase the cost. Give everbody a raise and ask them to work less. YYYYUP ,sounds like NAV CANADA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrr Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 "Your damn right Nav Canada has been cutting some fat. That's why sometimes your holding, or sometimes your number 20 for takeoff or sometimes you get a speed restriction, or sometimes...... We have become the valujet of Air Navigation Services. You want reduced user fees. Fine, then expect ATC delays." Right! Well air traffic has decreased exponentially since: 1.Sept 11th 2.Depressed economy. 3. War. 4. SARS. Have you checked out all the parked metal? Give it a shake. Yer workin cuz planes r flyin'. 20% wasn't enough of a cut as far as I'm concerned. But thats typical of any company with puppet strings attached to the federal government. Cut service and increase the cost. Give everbody a raise and ask them to work less. YYYYUP ,sounds like NAV CANADA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mars Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 Labtec, Controllers have tried for years to improve the system, but are stonewalled by management. Most, if not all, suggestions or ideas by operational controllers are ignored by management because the idea did not originate from them. They seem to feel that recognizing that we may indeed have some expertise in improving things would dilute their control of the workplace. I once heard the phrase: "Management has the right to manage, including managing badly". NAVCAN has that one down quite well. An example: Many ACC's have OP TEAMS; groups of controllers chosen by their peers to consult with management on all aspects of the operation. The existance of these teams is supported by both the company and the union as a way to IMPROVE the system. The sad reality is that management only calls upon the team to review management initiatives and then they ignore any of our concerns and go ahead anyway. Conversely, any suggestions from the ops team is almost impossible to get implemented, if not outright ignored. Many members of these teams quit in fustration. I appreciate that you don't blame the front line controller for the current state of the system, but don't blame us for not improving it either. You can only hit your head against a concrete wall for so long before it starts to hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mars Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 I'm working more traffic now year to date than for the same period in 2000 and 2001. Passenger numbers may be down, so airlines must be using smaller aircraft because those numbers are UP! Oh, and a war means more traffic for us, the USAF happens to put alot of metal through Canadian airspace. Oh, wait we exist only to service the airlines. Sorry Mr. Bush the airlines couldn't/wouldn't pay the cost of the service and we had to lay off all the controllers, please fly around our airspace. (surprized JC didn't make them:-)) A raise and work less! You have no idea what you are talking about, very typical of complainers on this forum. Our raise (last contract forced on us in 98, now 2 years expired) was completely paid for in concessions in hours of work, shift cycles, number of days at work (up 10%) etc. In fact I am making less after inflation now than 10-15 years ago and working more for it. Go ahead cut staff. I rarely get a 'Data Man' in a busy sector anymore because of past and ongoing cutbacks so I'll just have to get use to never having one and you'll have to get use to even more delays! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest texas Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 The reason controllers are blurting out clearances and then have two minutes of silence is because of the staff cuts. Talking on the radio is a small part of our job. We have hotlines, landlines as well as talking to other controllers around you. In the past a "data" contoller would do the outside work allowing the radar controller to concentrate on the radar. with the staffing now, sectors are closed and data is unavailable. We still work far more airplanes per controller than the Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kevenv Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 Traffic has decreased exponentially? What are you smoking? Have you ever bothered to research the numbers? Please define exponentially while you are at it. Is it 10%, 30% 50%, what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 Aircraft movement statistics February 2003 (preliminary) The 42 airports with NAV CANADA air traffic control towers reported 312,235 total movements in February, down 4.2% from the 326,231 movements recorded in February 2002. Monthly year-over-year comparisons show the rate of the decline is slowing. Sixteen airports showed increases in total aircraft movements in February compared with February 2002. Of the 27 airports showing year-over-year declines, eleven had decreases of more than 20%. Overall, February's decline was due to a drop in both itinerant movements (flights from one airport to another) and local movements (flights that remain in the vicinity of the airport). Itinerant movements fell 2.8% (-6,152 movements), while local movements fell 7.5% (-7,844 movements). Among the top ten airports in terms of volume of itinerant movements in February, Dorval recorded the largest gain in volume of itinerant movements, increasing by 881 movements (+6.7%). Edmonton City Centre reported the largest decline, down 650 itinerant movements (-9.9%). Among the top ten airports in terms of local movements, Boundary Bay and Montréal/St-Hubert recorded the largest gains, rising 1,366 (+17.6%) and 1,354 (+31.7%) local movements, respectively. Waterloo Regional and Victoria International recorded the largest declines, dropping 1,376 (-24.8%) and 1,125 (-17.6%) local movements, respectively. The tower at Sept-Îles closed in February 2002; data for this site now appear in the TP141 volume 1 report in the Flight Service Station category. The February 2003 issue of Aircraft movement statistics, Vol. 2, no. 2 (51F0001PIE, TP1496, free), is now available on Statistics Canada's website (www.statcan.ca). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAS Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 "NavCan does not operate the ramp on the airline side, GTAA does. Maybe the ramp guys are not always motivated to pass messages to the ground guys. Maybe Labtec's request did not go any further than the ramp guy's ear." The message gets passed day in and day out. It is up to the idividual ground controller if he or she will take outbound aircraft at DV. They want them ready to go even with a holding bay and dual taxiways. If one flight is not ready they tend to not trust any others. The ramp guy's as a group are more than willing to coordinate inbound and outbound points that are not "standard" however it requires the cooperation of the overworked under paid short staffed not today we are training tower controllers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MURRAY Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 You know as well as I do that it usually is not just "one flight" who isn't ready to go. Stop trying to minimalize what is a common problem with many who get a quick push from T2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAS Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 No it does just take one to piss off south ground so that they take no more at DV. I wanted MikePapaKilo to know that the requests are made. It is ground that makes the decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MURRAY Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 You're in denial. Acknowledge that there is an operational problem with many quick taxi's from T2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MikePapaKilo Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Malcolm, Don't be led astray by arrival and departure figures. They just tell you that domestic traffic at controlled airports is down in general, while up in particular spots. That really means little in terms of IFR busy-ness. Better to see the FIR count of IFR traffic. Not every aircraft that flies thru a flight information region lands in that FIR or within Canada for that matter. Seems to be more traffic in the upper levels between Montreal and Winnipeg in the last while, and a lot of freight haulers that must be on charter to the U.S. military - Call signs I've never heard before. Cheers ! MPK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MikePapaKilo Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 In my haste to post and be somewhere else, I did neglect to mention the times that we have sat on the south side coming out of avitat, and heard that the mini / maxi bus or the Boeing wasn't quite ready. I'm guessing the movie wasn't over, or the load wasn't all in, or the sheepskin seats were a little itchy.:-).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 At the threshold of 24r it shouldn't matter if the Aircraft is ready to go or not. There is a block to park in and the access to 24R Can accomodate 2 aircraft side by side. Us being ready or not is simply a cop out. For heaven's sake they just spent how many 100's of thousands of dollars widening the run up block an taxi way down there? If you fly into LGA or DCA or ORD there is always a block to pull into if you're not ready you're not ready and the concrete they have poured accomodates that fact. The YYZ guys just don't want to play ball. It doesn't just cost the airline and our passengers money and time it costs the environment and the air in YYZ suffers as a result. The YYZ tower controllers live in the area so their little asthmatic kids have to breathe the air they help to pollute because of their obstinance. So be it. I commute anyway take a deep breath and cough. Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSkyGuy Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 You dont have a clue what your talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mars Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 BSG, unfortunately there will always be pilots that truly believe they know more about controlling than controllers by virtue of the fact that they operate in our environment (I've met some face to face). That is not to say that they do not have valid concerns, insights and suggestions. However, they always seem to attack the controllers who have little or no 'control' over the making of the rules under which we must operate. Funny thing though, I have yet to meet a controller who by virtue of his/her occupation believes they know how to fly an airplane (excepting those that are pilot license holders of course) let alone better than the pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAS Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 There is no such thing as a quick taxi from T2 due in a large part to your coworkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSkyGuy Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 You are right of course Mars. I shouldn't have taken the bait but I worked in YYZ tower for the better part of 10 yrs and these criticisms I take personally even though I know better. To borrow a phrase from one of the veterans there "I can understand his ignorance; it's his arrogance that I have a problem with." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrr Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Dude, Have a look at the thread above about Transat layoffs, open your eyes to the fact that AC needs to lay off, look at all the Jazz layoffs that have happened already. Sure there are other startups and West Jet is still hiring. I'm no market expert but i'll go out on a limb and say all the layoffs just MIGHT have a little to do with what I mentioned in my first post. If NAV CANADA chooses to close their eyes to this then fine, they will end up as an inneficient bloated operation just like AC in a few years. PS. All one has to do is look around and see all the parked metal laying around. Why do you think AC wants to sell it's ZIP fleet all of a sudden. Is it because business is booming and they have to turn customers away? Actually I would like to have some of what you're smokin' ... it would make me feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mars Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Floatrr maybe you're the one that has to open your eyes. The downturn in the airline industry, due to many circumstances, is unfortunate and I truly feel for those that may face reduced wages or outright layoff. However, that same downturn has allowed a severely short staffed controller workforce to at best take a small reprieve from excessive workload and ridiculous mandatory overtimes (ever work 9 on 1 off for an extended period?). You seem to think that if traffic goes down a certain percentage then the same percentage of our staff must then be excess. WRONG. Even now in the midst of the 'industry crisis' we are still understaffed, any cuts now would have immediate effect on service and a debilitating one down the road. Did you know that about 25% of current controllers will probably retire within 2 years? Bottom line; there must and will be a safe, viable and funded ANS, regardless if it's provided by NAVCAN or TC or basketweavers-interational. Please read any of my above posts where I try to explain our work situation and feel free to ask ask any questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAS Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 J.H. When you went west YYZ tower lost one of the good ones. Same with F.T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kevenv Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 First off I apologize for insinuating you are on anything in particular. It just irks me when people post baseless information and then ignore factual info when it is posted. Having said that, you neglected to answer the question my friend, Did you research the numbers (Airport movements dont necessarily reflect the traffic I work) and would you be so kind as to give us your definition of exponentially when used in regards to traffic decline? Those who work the traffic are in a better position than you to inform on staffing and traffic, not to mention fees charged. I have posted accurate info on fees charged by NavCant relative to both Transport Canada and other countries, and the thread just dies, ignored by the originators of the duff info. Why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrr Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 I think I may see where you misunderstand the term "Traffic" in the context I used it in. Air Traffic comes from airplanes in the air. Passenger Traffic comes from passengers. No passengers, no passenger traffic = No Air Traffic = No Controller. I know ATC may have been understaffed in the past , I think the industry is a little different today with bigger changes on the horizon, and not good ones. See my point yet? That being said, read my posts again and really think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrr Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Point well taken. And I have worked 9 and 1's. Actually , about 20 and 1's in the past. Lets hope the future is not all doom and gloom. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best! As I'm sure NAV CAN will. And you're right there always will be a safe ANS in this country whoever it is. And it's the good folks behind the mic that make it that way. Smiley thing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mars Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Floatrr, thanks for the compliment, we truely do try our best with what we are given. Reference the 9/1 cycle, I now pilots often work that and worst especially earlier in their career. However, pilots have the opportunity to move up to bigger metal and better days of work over time (I now that is not the case right now and wish you all a quick return to such opportunity). Controllers however all work the same number of days and are subject to mandatory O/T regardless of 1 or 35 years of senority (more vaction for senority, if you can ever book it). Regardless, all the best to you and your peers for a better future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.