Guest MikePapaKIlo Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 CBC says: Nav Canada to raise airline fees OTTAWA - Nav Canada, the not-for-profit company that runs the navigation system at Canada's airports, says it will have to raise fees this year to cover a deficit that is expected to hit $157 million, up from last fall's prediction of $84 million. "Customer service charges will be increased effective Aug. 1, 2003," it said Monday. The amount was not specified, but the increase is sure to worry the aviation industry, which has been lobbying the federal government to cut charges to stimulate travel and help ailing airlines. Air Canada went into bankruptcy protection April 1, and a Parliamentary committee last week recommended a $650 million cut in aviation taxes and fees. While not disclosing the size of the price rise it needs, Nav Canada did say it wants to break even in fiscal 2004, ending Aug. 31, 2004, and recover losses it said will hit $176 million by August over the next five years,. It said it will have a detailed fee proposal ready for its users, the airlines, by May 15. It also said it plans to cut $34 million in costs this year. It's seeking "wage restraints" from unionized employees and has frozen salaries for non-unionized employees until Aug. 31, 2004. Nav Canada reported a loss of $24 million on revenue of $207 million for the three months ended Feb. 28. But that was after it used its rate-stabilization account, which cut the quarterly loss by $31 million from the $55 million it would otherwise have been. The account works by putting off costs, but those charges do have to be paid eventually. Part of Nav Canada's problem was caused by Air Canada, which owes the agency $44 million. About $23 million of that was owed before the end of the quarter, on Feb. 28, and has been written off as a bad debt, adding to the loss in the quarter. Nav Canada said it is assessing the other $21 million, the charges Air Canada ran up from Feb. 28 until April 1, when the airline sought bankruptcy protection. That may also have to be written off. Air Canada represents 28 per cent of Nav Canada's revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest q650 Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 NavCan SUCKS. How many time shave they hiked their fees since privatization? What a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest q650 Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 So, what's new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aBusDriver Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 Oh isn't that nice. They want to break even this year. I've been trying to break even in business for years. What makes them so special? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sanders Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 Someone pinch me....I must be dreaming! What a joke! Let the slaughter continue.....actually, Collenette probably drummed that up somehow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sanders Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 Someone pinch me....I must be dreaming! What a joke! Let the slaughter continue.....actually, Collenette probably drummed that up somehow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mars Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 Raising of fees by NAVCAN is very new. From the moment the company was created in 1996 until a recent 3% hike, fees were cut or rebated and are still lower now than prior to 1996 (and that doesn't even take into account inflation which makes the savings even bigger). Like it or not NAVCAN is required by law to break even. That was the reasoning during the year 97-01 when well over 500 million was rebated to the airlines in 'excess' fees (during which time the company took a hardline bargaining stance and wiped out all good will that the employees brought into the privatization). Now that revenue is not as great during the downturn highlights that the business model is not working: cut fees in good economic times when the customer could afford to pay more, and then raise fees during hard times when they can least afford it. For an interesting read on NAVCAN, http://www.catca.ca/English/Branches_and_Facilities/Economical.PDF While this was written to support the bargaining position of controllers before the mediator it gives a revealing look into the company and it's finances and composition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSkyGuy Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 All they are doing is taking back a small portion of the hundreds of millions of dollars that they have rebated Air Canada since their inception in 1996. Rebates, BTW that they have absolutely no mandate to issue. In fact, it goes against their mandate. However Nav Canada is run, via puppet strings, by Air Canada so there you go. Also, let me clarify that this is in no way a shot at the men and women of Air Canada. Quite the contrary. My beef has always been with Colenette, and senior airline management who perpetrated the monumental conflict of interest in allowing the ANS to be run by the airlines. If Nav Canada had followed their mandate, they would not have rebated user fees to Air Canada, when Air Canada was making money. They then would not have to be hiking fees at a most inappropriate time during this industry crisis. I work for these idiots, and it stinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dockjock Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 I was going to join in with an uninformed "morons" comment. BigSkyGuy- Thanks, now I can weigh in with a slighly more informed "morons" comment. As Clive Beddoe has been quoted saying, "Long range planning in aviation often encompasses about 10 days." Ain't that the sad truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Q Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 Maybe we should start charging them for the wear and tare on the radios we use to talk to them.....Just as stupid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiho Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 "However Nav Canada is run, via puppet strings, by Air Canada so there you go." So, by your reasoning, Air Canada picked this point in time to INCREASE the user fees it has to pay? Please explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 The Canadian way...shoot first, especially your own foot, then think about it later.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mr stiffler Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 aBusDriver: That has to be the most retarded post I have ever seen on this forum. Please tell me you drive a city bus - not an airbus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lupin Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 In these time of airline concessions.... I would expect everyone would have to participate in cutbacks....not just the carrier but NAVCANADA as well!!!If the model is not working its everyones'problem. Navcanada probably can cut some fat just like evryone else. Lupin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fester Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 Sorry, but contrary to popular belief, Nav Canada is NOT an airline! It is a service provider to a wide range of aviation organisations, some of which are doing very well these days. In the States, (where US Air, United, AA, etc are based), controllers recently negotiated a 3-year contract, with appropriate wage increases, based on the good work those good folks do. Don't expect all those around you to share in Air Canada's pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fester Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 Sorry, but contrary to popular belief, Nav Canada is NOT an airline! It is a service provider to a wide range of aviation organisations, some of which are doing very well these days. In the States, (where US Air, United, AA, etc are based), controllers recently negotiated a 3-year contract, with appropriate wage increases, based on the good work those good folks do. Don't expect all those around you to share in Air Canada's pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mars Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 NAVCAN cut the fat already. A 20% reduction in staff from the government organization took place almost immediately (unlike some airlines who are only now doing so long after it was required). Unfortunately in their zeal to please the airlines (who have control of the company Board of Directors) they have also cut into the lean of the operation which will have long lasting effects beyond the current financial status of some airlines. Don't forget the real goal of NAVCAN is to ensure the viability of the ANS and not to help manage the airline business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSkyGuy Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 No, what I'm saying is that Nav Canada is being poorly managed. They operate under a highly flawed business plan. They are forced to hike user fees now at a really bad time for the airlines because they gave away operating surplusses that they charged the airlines over the last few years. It has to do with their user fee charging structure. The CAW prepared a really good presentation on this issue which you can see if you go to CATCA.CA and then select the bargaining link and then economical report. Naturally the report is slanted becasue we are before the CIRB. However, it is still very interesting reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSkyGuy Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 Your damn right Nav Canada has been cutting some fat. That's why sometimes your holding, or sometimes your number 20 for takeoff or sometimes you get a speed restriction, or sometimes...... We have become the valujet of Air Navigation Services. You want reduced user fees. Fine, then expect ATC delays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 When Air Canada represents 28% of your revenue you better be sure you'll feel the pain. You are a service provider you are there for our benefit. We are not here for yours. Nav Canada and Transport Canada before it have always been ridiculously inefficient. We have 3 parallel runways at Pearson and double taxiways leading out of the ramp and still we piss away fuel and time taxiing through the ramp behind pushback after pushback and waiting to takeoff behind lander after lander all the while a runway sits unused. Why? Because your organization thinks its to difficult to do what is done at every major airport in the U.S.. Why doesn't the pearson airport utilize Charlie and Delta at the south end properly? How many time do we taxi out all the way past DV to the next taxiway for a departure off 24R because the ground controller doesn't want an airplane waiting in the block? It makes no sense. I told them we were ready to go the other day and could take an immediate out of DV and we were told the ground controller didn't believe us so we would have to drive up to DF and taxi back down Charlie past DV to the Runway. Ridiculous absolutely ridiculous. We may pay the fees but we sure don't get the same level of service as we do from the americans. Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mars Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 "We may pay the fees but we sure don't get the same level of service as we do from the americans." You get what you pay for. The American ANS has 6.5 times the staff, but it costs 12 times more. NAVCAN says it's goal is to be the 'World's most respected ANS'. Well, if most respected means cheapest than it is well on it's way. P.S. many NAVCAN employees believe they forgot the 'u' in ANS;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fester Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 Labtec, first, the YYZ operation is a favourite punching ball, but consider the GTAA, noise abatement, construction etc. before you piss on Canadian controllers as a whole. Second, I am truly sorry that your company is bankcrupt. However, don't expect all the surrounding ships to go down in a show of solidarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 I never blame the worker bees they just mindlessly follow the system as developed by the "brains" behind the operation. Controllers are only as good as the system designed for them to work within and that system is crap in Canada. As to your point about us going down and you not wanting to follow. I hear you. But you have to remember that 28% of your revenue is dependant upon us if you don't think that's significant you have been working for the government or government mandated monopolies to long. You people ought to be continuously trying to improve the service you provide and make it more efficient. You don't do this. At least not from my perspective as a front line user of your service. Pearson is not a busy airport. It just isn't. You want busy try LGA or DFW or ORD. These operations have controllers and pilots working to the line and its beautiful to watch. Incidentally, an American pilot friend of mine asked me once why do our YYZ terminal controllers belt out a vector and descent clearance in such a way that the intonation and rapidity imply that if that clearance isn't followed NOW imminent disaster is looming just on the horizon? He said these clearances are usually preceded and then followed by minutes of silence. He argued that American controllers only do this when disaster is imminent. I have started to listen for this and he's right. Except for "ROG" that guy rocks he is the coolest cucumber of the bunch. Like it or not your wagon is tied to our horse so you had better work with us and realize that you need to serve your customer and we are your biggest. Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MikePapaKilo Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 If I might intervene from the corporate side .... It has been my experience that the ROE's in the states are quite different from here in Canada. But surely you know that. I believe the tower crew at YYZ does as best they can, given the airport layout, the airport authority, and the standards they have to work with. NavCan did not pour the concrete for 33L. GTAA did. The mere fact that they did not think to make the distance from centre line to centreline enough to allow parallel simultaneous ops. is a usual indicator of their arrogance. The separation standards are not Navcan's - they are Transport's doing. If you don't like them, take some positive, proactive steps to change them. From my visits I know the controllers are trying, but Transport is not listening. NavCan does not push up to 25 departures at the same time. Air Canada does (or used to). And some days,it seems they all want to be first with wheels in the wells. NavCan does not operate the ramp on the airline side, GTAA does. Maybe the ramp guys are not always motivated to pass messages to the ground guys. Maybe Labtec's request did not go any further than the ramp guy's ear. Those who complain, and make somewhat naive statements about ATC ops should take the time to visit. I have been in the tower, and sat in on the arrival/departure sector at YYZ, and I have taken the time to visit most of the larger towers in Canada and some in the U.S. Very educational. I don't complain much, because I have informed myself. Not all of us have taken the time..... One should be considerate in their assertion that the system exists for Air Canada's benefit. Lots of us think otherwise, specially now that that Air Canada has stiffed Nav for 44 million bucks. Kinda puts Big Red in a bit of a pickle to complain about service on one hand, while the corporation has sucked 44 million out of the ATC system on the other hand. Some corporate departments just hope that the fee increases that come as a result of Air Canada's 44 million dollar gift to the rest of the industry does not lose us a few nice jobs ! Cheers ! MPK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrr Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 OK so Nav Canada already trimmed the fat! Great! I guess there hasn't been decreased air traffic due to a couple of *&(&^** terrorists flying some jets into buildings or a resultant depressed economy and a war! Oh no. Wake up dude! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.