Dual Engine Failure

[Mitch Cronin]

Got your attention eh?... Me too... A guy gave me this last night; it's from Boeing:

"

Flight Operations Flight Crew Information Bulletin

Number 767 IB 2000-1

Date January 21, 2000

Subject:Dual Engine Failure

ReasonTo provide flight crews with a revised LOSS OF THRUST ON BOTH ENGINES non-normal procedure.

[yada yada yada]

Background Information

Boeing has determined that the existing LOSS OF THRUST ON BOTH ENGINES non-normal checklist is not the optimal method for resolving a dual engine failure or flameout from a high power setting when ground contact is a factor." [emphasis added by me]

Uhhh... 'Scuse me.... I have a question..... Checklist? Is someone actually going to be reaching for the QRH and looking up a checklist in that situation?

Anyway, it goes on to say they recognize that the difficulty in obtaining a restart at high power settings is that the engine may restart into a stall or a hot start ...and now, if that's the case... if one of the things is stalling or overtemping, they recommend placing the fuel control switch in CUT OFF and immediately back to RUN to cool the thing very quickly and give you the best chance of a speedy recovery. (repeatedly if needed)

I don't have the previously recommended procedure, but from what is here, it sounds as though it was to leave the switch in cut off for 30 seconds (!?!)

So what's my point, you may be wondering?.... Just that earlier question I guess, ....and that I think it's a bit bizarre that they would have previously suggested actually sitting there in cut off for 30 seconds "when ground contact is a factor" because an engine was overheating. I'd have thought at that point nobody would much care if they cooked one in order to avoid trashing the whole machine. But still interesting to note that you might avoid that overcook, rapidly cooling it by rescheduling the fuel, and continuing with your start without much time lost.

Disclaimer:... Do not try this at home... posted here for amusement and education (mine) purposes only... If any of this is proprietary or otherwise not to be posted here, I'll delete it and deny ever doing it....

...and I hope not a single one of you ever finds any need for that information bulletin, or that checklist! Unless you're in the sim I guess

g'night....

[AIP]

Mitch, not to worry (to much anyhow), the Dual Engine Failure is a memorised drill as it should be.

I believe the intent is to move the switch from run to cutoff and then back to run, no 30 seconds wait time (as you indicated, you may not have 30 seconds if ground contact is a factor).

DUAL ENGINE FAILURE

[CF6-80C]

Condition: Thrust or thrust lever response is lost from both

engines.

ENGINE START SELECTORS (Both) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . FLT

THRUST LEVERS (Both) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . CLOSE

FUEL CONTROL SWITCHES (Both) . . . .CUT OFF, THEN RUN

If engine appears stalled or EGT approaches the Standby

Engine Indicator placard limit:

Repeat the above step as necessary.

[Reduces EGT and improves airflow.]

Note: SEI maximum EGT limit is in–flight start EGT limit.

The bold items are drill (memorised items), I particularily love the part about repeat the above steps as necessary

[Check Pilot]

I always figured the first part of the memory items should be:

Emotions..........Stop panic thoughts.

Suitable flat landing area.........Acquire and proceed towards

Engines...........Restart, etc.

[Moon The Loon]

I think a lot of the modern thought towards things like this came from the BA incident over Jakarta in the 1970's (?) where the F/E left the checklist on his desk and just tried 1, 2, 3, 4 then 1 again, and so on until he finally got two lit. He wasn't concerned about what the book said, written in someone's office, far far away - just fuel+oxygen+ignition. Or in two words, common sense.

As stated, not too much time to think should it happen after takeoff. So rare in fact though, has it ever happened to a modern twin-jetliner? The last near simultaneous two-engine out incident was BA in Mirabel about 10 years ago after sucking a flock of Canada geese. The AT incident in the Azores doesn't really enter into this topic, methinks...

[Mitch Cronin]

Thanks gents... A memorized drill sounds much more like it... I could see pulling out a checklist at altitude, but with that contact with ground factor... I did have trouble imagining that happening....

Cheers,

[Moon The Loon]

I think one of the steps in checklists I've seen in past years goes something like:

"Avoid contact with ground."

Usually in big, bold italics

A few years ago, I gave a book I found in Auckland NZ to one of my WJ friends. It was written by a passenger on that Jakarta flight and very enlightening indeed especially from the back-end perspective.

[Canus Chinookus]