MURRAY Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 HPT-TOUR: Thanks. Much appreciated. buskipper: There is no point ignoring my attitude. My attitude is the product of a generally uncooperative, unappreciative and above all mainly uninformed clientele. In regard to the visual scenario, you'll notice my example takes place after the trailing aircraft is turned onto final. By the way, if your traffic is a DH8 on a 10 mile final, that would put him 5.2 miles back from NOAHA. It would be a pretty neat trick to get you in front of him having to turn final at or outside the FAF. We don't compare ourselves to ORD, specifically because of the runway layout. Many of the configurations used at ORD (e.g. land 04R, 09R, depart 32L/intersection take-off,32R.)do not have intersecting runways. There are few combinations at YYZ where intersecting runways are avoided. Again, the crews in and out of ORD are motivated and get the job done. Frankly, if I wanted an objective opinion on the ORD operation, I'd ask an American Eagle or a United Express crew. Better yet, I'd ask a controller from ORD. Or visit there. Like many of us have. LGA? How about you give me some numbers? Specifically, the ratio of heavies to mediums (Remember, no flight out of LGA goes further west than DEN), total daily traffic count, total yearly traffic count, arrival acceptance rates for the various runway configurations and maybe the yearly delay total. Get back to me and we'll talk more. JayDee: You and I could play that game for months. If you are unwilling to acknowledge that you are part of the problem, it ain't gonna get better. chiselcharter: Did you glean that airtight piece of fact from your buddy's fridge calendar as well? PortTack: My experience leads me to believe that this problem exists to a greater degree with a specific group. Anything more would be imprudent. Some are great to work with, though. As are a lot of the regional turboprops in and out of YYZ. A real joy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 "As are a lot of the regional turboprops in and out of YYZ. A real joy" thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 ". . . Some are great to work with, though. As are a lot of the regional turboprops in and out of YYZ. A real joy." Murray, this is probably 'cause so many YVR based effos went to YYZ to get their fourth banana. And before they left they were 'trained' by the fantastic YVR ACC group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shockwave Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 First of all it amazes me how little we know of each others operating environments yet we are both quick and daft to point out ways of improving "the system". Murray thank you for your insights and sharing them with the aviation community. I have a few questions of my own for that matter, 1. How does your MANOPS compare with those of other countries? Is yours more restrictive? For example, in the UK an ATC controller can clear you to position "behind the landing aircraft" so we don't wait at the holding line for a minute or two as you explain to China Airlines that he missed his exit....i think you get the point..... 2. Is the MANOPS continually revisited to reflect an ever changing demand on airports? If so how often? 3. This one i asked years ago but never received a reply. Before the ground was broken for our lovely Rwy 33L in Toronto, was it known by ATC from the outset that parellel ILS approaches could not be flown under the current MANOPS? If so was ATC even consulted or better yet was this an issue? Many years ago on approach to Rwy 36 in YWG the controller said that braking was poor to nil and the Captain calmly replied "Oh, how many landings have you done today?" The controller (giggling) replied that was from a 737 landed 2 minutes ago. The Captain said "Thank You" and we all had a chuckle. Until we know each others environments of operation i think MOST of us have valid reasons for doing the things we do, be it ATC or Pilots.... CHEERS ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 you said, "There are few combinations at YYZ where intersecting runways are avoided." Oh which combinations are those? do you really mean that! how about 24L 24R and 23 that would be 3 runways (and they do not intersect), 50% more than LHR and alas the third almost never used. 3 runway config Usable in all winds except >25 kt xwind components and on that day you that you still have 2 non intersecting runways, which is all they ever use now anyway. So perhaps you can explain how Torontos runway config is so limiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 YVR ACC is a great group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MURRAY Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 My apologies, V1. For those of you who currently reside below 'single celled organism' on the evolutionary totem pole, I meant when you factored in the possibility of adding one or both of the 33's to the mix. I think everyone else understands that the three east/west runways are parallel and do not intersect. And the runway configurations at YYZ are limiting when compared to the layout at ORD. YYZ Tower staffing is also an issue, like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 What if a 290/M.73 KT B737 is tied with a 340KT/M.84 B744 - does the manner thing still apply or does the faster guy win?? Cheers Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lumpy Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Murray: What I recall from my experience at YYZ and observing ORD is ATTITUDE.You have to be motivated to do a good job; controllers and pilots. Sitting up front, inbound to ORD,I whatched the pilots plan and execute the high speed exit from the runway at twice the speed used at YYZ. Aircraft taxi at twice the speed to the gates. ATC trainees were getting crap if taxiing A/C had to come to stop for crossing traffic!Tower controllers' being chastied for giving too much space. Back at YYZ a DC 9 decides the secound highspeed exit gets him to his gate in record time,causeing a overshoot! I know there are huge differences in layouts/runways/noise abatement/ proceedures ..but we have to work together if we want this to work. Oh by the way.... I never heard a pilot ask his/hers sequence at ORD, but they still get high marks for moving metal. Lump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 the biggest limitation in YZ is your attitude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yyzfreak Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 They all do <250 below 10,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MURRAY Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 On the contrary, in some cases (Say, for example, yours), an attitude like mine is exactly what's required. Some folks need a lot of help to force them to look beyond their own cockpit. I haven't given up on you, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MURRAY Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 shockwave: MANOPS is quite similar to its FAA counterpart in regards to radar separation. Airport regs at first glance, seem a little farther apart. Can't help you much with the U.K. stuff. MANOPS is updated regularly, but the idea of demand doesn't seem to be a high priority. Re. 33L: Parallel IFR approaches were probably not a huge consideration. For one, there really weren't too many options in terms of where to put 33L, short of filling in the gully, and as you can probably imagine, that would have been incredibly cost prohibitive. Second, vis. is usually pretty good when we're on the 33's, and parallel visual approaches on 33R are allowed. They don't get used very often (Usually 4-8 per hour)as this would increase departure delays, 33R being the departure runway. EGLL has a similar configuration, that being land one, depart one, with the occasional strategic offload to the departure runway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.