Guest Starman Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 A lot of posters here seem to think that they can alter or cancel Keller by putting pressure on a bankrupt company by threatening the deal. You might want to vote "NO" for any number of reasons, but trying to link the two is counterproductive to say the least. The company has no authority to change a board order by the CIRB and neither does ACPA. By the way, ACPA is legally bound to represent all of its members, not just those who were originally from the red side. And I'm getting a little tired of hearing about "surplus ex-Canadian pilots". We all brought our jobs into the combined company, and since then the company hired more pilots, so there were no surplusses on the CDN side. As I said before, I'm a middle seniority guy, after 22 years, and under Mitchnick I am junior to AC originals with 6.5 years. The fact that AC brought 7 billion in debt to the merger and is now in bankrupcy court, is the best evidence that Mitchnick's underlying premise for his grossly unfair seniority list was wrong. It's a lot easier to be fighting passionately for equality than it is to fight for a windfall gain conferred by a discredited arbitrator and it would appear that perhaps Lordon / Keller and the CIRB agree with us on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAT3DUAL Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Every business analyst will tell you where ground zero for AC present problems start and you can take a WILD A$$ Guess where and when that was. You stupid self rightious pr! CAIL buys WARDAIR = dead AIR CANADA buys CAIL = dead You guys finally got what you wanted all thoughs years ago, "better dead than RED". There is such a S#!T storm going to come down in the next three days from original AC, can you say "sick days". West Jet your day has come in spades. Good on YA. Just remeber when you are hiring like crazy in the next few months, don't touch the ex-CAIL guys everything they touch turns to s#!t very fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tri-spool Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I'll go out on a limb here, and say "You wanna bet"? I strongly believe that behind all of this, is the Liberal gov't saying. Oh, Oh this is serious crap! Why do you think the Keller award has been postponed? It will no longer be released this Friday. Hmmmm... I wonder why? As for all of those members who posted in the last few days about how the junior ACPA pilots who are slated for layoff should think about the Big Picture and vote Yes, in order to ratify the new contract... what side of the fence do you sit on now... and how will you vote? If your decision is to vote NO, then I suggest you are all a bunch of hypocrites! Cheers! Insert smiley face here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Continuous Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 >> alter or cancel Keller << I think postponement until it's determined that there will even BE a company, is what the posters probably meant.IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickle Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I cannot fathom that in this current environment that you would even consider advocating a “sick out” simply to provoke the fight even longer between the AC and CDN pilots. Are you sure that you really want to do this at this point in time. As a non-pilot I, quite frankly, don’t care about your seniority issues as long as it does not affect the company. When AC purchased CDN the unions made it very clear that the seniority issue was union business and the company should keep out. By and large I believe that the company has done that. It started out not so long ago with Jazz vs. ACPA and now we the added component of AC vs. CDN within ACPA. If there are any feelings within ALPA of QK vs. GX vs. ZX vs. CRA they are keeping it well hidden or have just taken it upon themselves to deal with it internally. When company A buys company B, you take the employees with it. Such is the case in our industry. Milton rolled the dice on purchasing CDN and IMO, he lost. If he had not succumbed to the bidding war with Onex, we certainly would not be facing the additional 3 billion in long term debt that was acquired to fend them off. The company would look pretty much the same, RM would/could still be president, headquarters would still be YUL (as mandated by law). Yes we would have switched alliances from Star to Oneworld (which does not have its largest carrier in bankruptcy). The technology platform would have moved over to Sabre. Now Gerry Schwartz is much to savvy of a businessman to let himself get raped by Sabre like CDN did. Onex had publicly stated that there would be layoffs. RM gave everyone the no layoff clauses. Where are we today. Everyone likes to tout the conspiracy theory that the feds forced AC to acquire CDN, but I have yet to see hard evidence of that. If there were some, it surely would have been found by now through the freedom of information access. Was there pressure exerted by the feds for a solution that did not involve AA, probably. The only clear winner of that battle was Gerry Schwartz with the bundles of cash he pocketed due to the bump up of the share prices. It appears to me that we have come full circle to where Schwartz said he would have taken the company initially. There is one small exception, it took CCAA to force us to do the right things. The unions wouldn’t believe that we were in trouble until the company initiated this action. I do however, firmly believe that this company was in deep financial trouble long before 9/11. Certainly 9/11 and SARS have hurt us tremendously. Even more than that, the low cost operators are kicking our butts. We are faced with an opportunity to put this company back onto it’s feet by lowering the cost of operation. Are the pilots willing to risk all of this over a deep seeded feud consisting of the AC vs. CDN groups. I hope not. If you are, get it done so the rest of us can get on with our lives. If you must call in sick in the next few days then I hope it is because you are truly ill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Maybe a world wide ban on hiring of OAC pilots. When this airline tanks, it will not be because of the Canadi>n Pilots. The OAC crowd can carry that banner. When the Mitchnick List came down, as devastated as we were we still did the job we are paid to do. Much to the surprize of YYZ flt ops there was no excessive book offs. I guess they thought we were as unprofessional as the junior A/C pilots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Great Logic: Canadi>n buys Wardair Canadi>n pilots FAULT Canadi>n has financial trouble Canadi>n Pilots FAULT Air Canada buys Canadi>n Canadi>n Pilots FAULT Air Canada has financial trouble Canadi>n Pilots FAULT You should seek help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest propup Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 It’s funny, the woes of Air Canada seem to be tied to the acquisition of Cdn Airlines. I happen to agree in this deregulated world, they probably should not have purchased Cdn. Why introduce the dissention of merged seniority lists and protectionism that it breeds. And for what reason, to purchase routes? Gates? Slots? Westjet has the right idea once again, grow don’t merge. On the other hand everyone seems to have forgotten the term “burn the furniture to heat the house”. This refers to Air Canada’s undercut the competition to create a monopoly and drive the yield up policy. The Cdn folks flew to many of the same destinations with similar load factors at arguably a cheaper cost structure yet they showed red ink while Air Canada reported black ink. How did they do it was always on the employees mind. Rumors from sources including this forum now indicate that assets were sold including aircraft and then leased back. Very little if any money seems to have been made actually carrying people. I thinks we have to look deeper into Air Canada’s past business practices if we are to assign blame. Where do we go from here. Well I am tired of the crying and vote no rhetoric. How many pilots and for that matter other specific airline job employees think they can replace their newly reduced wage by switching companies or industries if this falls apart? I know I can’t. Whatever I do will have me starting at a lower salary. Those voting no must either be very sure this is a bluff on the part of the company, creditors and that the government was lying when they say there will be no bailout or they have another opportunity to which I say “take it and move on” as many of us do not have that option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EFIS25 Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 There it is your honour - proof he is a complete moron! Explain how ac went from taking over cdn with $2 billion debt to $11 million debt in 6 months! Talk to your accountant man! Your co is a joke, always has been. And yeah, "hey westjet dont hire exCAIL guys........they.......they.......show up for work, they talk to other crew members and f/a's, they have new ac pilot shoes they dont deserve, they dont require Train to Standard, etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HPT-TOUR Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Cat-pee after all the mud slinging you have thrown at us Regionals over the years there is nothing nicer than reading your posts right now, keepem coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goggles Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 "I do however, firmly believe that this company was in deep financial trouble long before 9/11. Certainly 9/11 and SARS have hurt us tremendously." The fundamental reason is because of the end of the bubble economy. Things just had to contract a bit. What 911 did was to exacerbate the fall in the transborder traffic. AC could sustain the competition wars with CAIL throughout because, despite its higher cost structure, it simply made up for it somewhat with the lucrative transborder market. It didn't have to sell assets as fast as CAIL. During the bubble economy, every one was willing to lend to AC, assuming that it could never fail. The bubble burst, and 911 made it that much worse. AC's cost structure hasn't changed much yet (employee benefits are really minor in all of this), so the result is heavy losses. Robert's 2 billion dollar odd poison pill (under BOD direction I believe) to fend off Gerry just brought everything on faster. Just my opinion. Gopggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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