Guest Terminated Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 I agree with you Greg. And there are some (too many) of those 'grudge holders' on both sides. I really think that it is the scenario that doesn't seem to penalize either group, and lays the foundation for a long term solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.70 mach Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Guys lets suggest it our respective union leaders and build that foundation for all our futures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest meokay Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Amen to that brother!! I know all about the whipsaw agrument it is the same one we used when we were CALPA to show AC pilots the light. They dropped the ball rejecting Picher.It could even be agrued that it is in no small part why AC is on the verge of going bankrupt. I personally want no part of the AC pilot group. I would prefer our group takes there chances. It is quite amusing that under the gun people are willing to talk.Where were you folks when you were at your ACPA meetings in the past.Would it not have been the time to tell your rep's the current situaion was unfair and your friends at the regional deserve better treatment. I am not sure if I hold the grudge but I do know one thing,I don't trust anything that comes from AC pilot group and I am fairly certain many others share my view. Bridges that are burned down are very expensive to fix. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Greg DOH is the only acceptable resolve to the present issue. I wouldn’t want to see several hundred pilots with a first allegiance to ACPA having voting rights on my list. Without DOH, one list and one union, acrimony, legal battle and continued corporate strife would surely follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 It's not about grudges. The AC pilot group stole my career and nothing short of having a whole lot of cash in hand will fix the wrong as against the senior regional group. This two list BS is nothing more than a continuation of history because it allows ACPA all the advantages. Of course my junior bretheren wouldn't agree but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest meokay Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Could not agree more re my post a few lines up!I don't think we are alone with our views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACsidestick Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Defcon, The only career you had is the one you CHOSE. AC offered you a job and you said shove it. Your fault, not AC, ACPA or anyone else. Snivle somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HPT-TOUR Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Sidestick, Picher offered you a chance to solve these current problems,you had your chance. The litigation is going very well for the AO group, just ask Don Johnston. Perhaps you should reconsider your attitude and snivel somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CleardecksforACTION! Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 For what it's worth, I like DD's proposal a lot. It means that no connector pilot would be bumped or disadvantged by a mainline pilot hired after his/her DOH. If a regional pilot got bumped or downgraded by a mainline pilot, it would only be by a mainline employee who had been hired before him/her. In exchange, their would be the benefit of having a 'total system seniority number' assigned to them, putting all current regional pilots ahead of all OTS new hires to the mainline. Also, one could stay at the regional indefinitely while still retaining the ability to go to the mainline at will with a seniority number assigned as of the date of the agreement. Cheerio! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rance Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 assume there is a mainline that is worth going to.It is no longer the carrotit once was to dangle. Perhaps jazz will be the place with growth?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shamus Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 AC offered no one a job. They attempted to create an inverse seniority system by hiring from the bottom up - and as a matter of fact, they succeeded with ACPA's support. I too do not want AC Main line pilots on an ALPA list eroding the vote of permanent ALPA members. By the way, cya in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terminated Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Are you a Jazz pilot? I ask because I think you would understanably like it if you were ACPA. If you are Jazz, then all the concerns you raised are addressed in the same way by the 3 list/mutual BOTL that GDR described. The main difference is that under DD's scenario, if indeed Jazz does end up with RJ's up to some size (75-110), then mainline pilots get DOH at most of the Jazz fleet, however Jazz pilots only get a date that equates to a current BOTL at mainline. That's where the inequity lies in my mind. Perhaps you don't fully understand the mutual BOTL scenario fully (I apologize if this is not the case). Both groups are able to take vacancies at the bottom of the other list, and seniority would accrue-system wide from this date on. All hiring would be at the bottom of everyone, and you could choose to let your seniority accrue at Jazz until you wanted to go over to mainline. Let me know if that doesn't makes sense. I am certainly of the mindset that we would be better off finding some kind of equitable solution, but I think Dicks plan is a little more equal to an ACPA member. Either way, I know myself and many other Jazz pilots would want to see job opportunities (if there is any growth at Jazz) go to unemployed AC pilots. Notably, this is more than we have gotten from the mainline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terminated Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 "The AC pilot group stole my career and nothing short of having a whole lot of cash in hand will fix the wrong as against the senior regional group."....."Of course my junior bretheren wouldn't agree but......" "The only career you had is the one you CHOSE. AC offered you a job and you said shove it. Your fault, not AC, ACPA or anyone else" These are great examples of the types that are on both sides that will try to hijack an attempt to find a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hawkeye Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Couldn't have said it better myself. Seems like it is ok now to have a DOH from this point on but not before, what has changed in the aviation world I wonder? ACPA must be losing some of it's pilot members sometime soon, as I would suspect for the sudden interest in some sort of list with the Regionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 " Right now the current ACPA scope clause prevents the RJs from going to JAZZ and this proposal should make it easier to accept." Greg: The current ACPA scope clause only lives as long as the current contract, at most. I don't think that the Co. could aquire the equipment in question prior to that sunset, regardless. After that the right to the equipment going forward, has already been sold to Jazz. So if my understanding is correct your scope clause is infact irrelevant to the current discussion. Having said all of that I agree with your goals. I have serious doubts as to whether any of us will be around with this company to fight over the scraps from the masters table. If we are I hope the current leadership from both camps can come to an understanding that we all work for, and have for a LONG time the same employer and that the the division and exclusion are not in any of our best interests. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 "These are great examples of the types that are on both sides that will try to hijack an attempt to find a solution." I believe everyone’s in agreement with the notion that a solution must be found and for certain, a solution will be found. The search for a solution began with the dawning of the deregulated era. In spite of all best efforts the search for the solution has failed to bear fruit. IMO, ACPA doesn’t play well with others and as a long evolved consequence of their behaviour a solution will now be imposed upon us by those whom are most important to the corporate success, the passenger and the shareholder / investor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CleardecksforACTION! Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Terminated- Yes I'm Jazz, and yes I think I understood both proposals, but if the topic is 'what's fair and mutually beneficial', I guess I was just presuming that AC's furloughs would not go that far back in terms of YOS. I may have been remiss on that one (as I've just seen a pretty big number on a different thread), due to the weird weighting of the ex-CAIL group. I had been thinking more along the lines of 5 YOS max in the furlough pool. Since the proposal by DD envisioned excluding the d8s, and since the RJ Capt and FO positions would go senior at Jazz anyway...only the bottom 50% say would be furloughed mainline guys. This may seem unfair to the Jazz folk who are subsequently preventd from bidding onto the RJ, but with the status pay system, it wouldn't affect their pay and their scheds would be better on the d8. I may not have my thinking cap on here, but the way I see the other proposal is that it's not much of a lure to the ACPA side...is it? "If you get furloughed, you can be at the BOTL of our list on a d8" If you think that you could get a good deal out of that then I see where you're coming from, but I think you'd get a collective yawn from that offer (notwithstanding that it comes from an ACPA gent.) There are many different ways of doing BOTL. I feel that we could parlay a better offer to ACPA into a really good BOTL. IE- 100% flowthru from us... All future AC hiring starts d8 right seat. Failing that a reserved block of numbers a la CRA. OTS guys may get there before you, but their number is behind yours. A BOTL for which I would not give up anything for example, would be say 50% flowthhru - 50% OTS and you only get your sen. # as of your mainline class date. YOS recognition at mainline for time put in from the time the agreement was signed for is a must as well. I guess the point is that the more we offer (within reason) the better should be the quid pro quo. Also keep in mind that mainline has scheduled retirements, guaranteeing that this effect would be finite. This is our opportunity and we shouldn't blow it thru nickel and diming on either side. Just MO Cheerio ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terminated Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Well, we're both on the same side, but we disagree on the specifics of the propsals. Good enough for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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