Mitch Cronin Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Please imprint this into your permanent memory: Niether Dave Ritchie, nor Ron Fontaine speak for those of us within maintenance who are, at least for the time being, trapped within the IAM against our will. It would be very nice if you would not think of IAM members as being a single lot. We are very much divided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Mitch or Robert, Airmail gets confused easily. Let me ask you. I have read,. . . somewhere? And it’s been while ago now . . . that as a consequence of CCAA [i believe], the IAM will be divided into AMEs and - all the rests. Would be fair, and correct in my mind, of course any riding your coattails would not think so. Do you know what I'm talking about, does it ring any bells with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Mitch: For your sakes, I certainly hope your right. Unfortunately, in Canada's socialist system, the official spokesperson for your bargaining unit -- ie. Dave Ritchie and Ron Fontaine -- get to make whatever noise they want regardless of what the membership says (or sadly even what your locally elected reps such as Jean Jallet say). Scary but true and unfortunately, they hold your future in their hands -- unless you take steps through the public vehicles available to you to make your views known. Good luck to us all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted May 4, 2003 Author Share Posted May 4, 2003 Howdy dragon... I've heard speculation... I've read the press releases... I've heard the talk, but so far, it remains a dream. We'll keep dreaming.... and scheming. But there are a number of people who've managed to worm their way into some high places within the IAM who'd probably tell you it'll happen over their dead bodies. Ritchie is rumoured to have said, "Fu&% the mechanics!" It sounds just like something he'd say and that's one rumour I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Hi Dragon, word from Milton is that he wants separate bargaining units for all groups, this will result in maintenance finally being able to bargain for itself. The problem that presently exists is Milton wanting to rape us for everything he can get, while I accept that he wants salaries in line with industry everage and yes there are some groups that are far above that average, we in maintenance are not, I know I am sounding like a broken record, but the constant babbling of the likes of George and DAGGER and a few others have left myself along with a few others who feel we nee to set the record straight. Dragon you fly 767,(good boy!!!) and I am sure you are handsomely compensated for it, but do you feel that it is fair for your salary to be minimum 3 times mine, because that is what it is my friend, or close to it. I am not willing to give an inch on my base salary,I know others will say I am nuts or greedy, but I am not the highest paid in this country, I am about 5% above West Jet, but I have more that is required of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Mitch, Ritchie's comment are not rumour, talk to Trevor B, he was there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Airmail, maybe now you may have an understanding of why we are trying to push CAMA, and why we in maintenance become upset when others try to group us in with the illogic of the IAM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 "Trying to push CAMA" is right -- unfortunately, you can push for CAMA all you want but unless you succeed, you're not CAMA or whatever else you'd like, you're IAM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 How is Milton trying to "rape" you. If what you're after is to split away from the groundhandling side of your union, it seems to me that the only person with the same agenda as you is Milton and you're best bet of ever achieving what you want is sticking with Milton. In terms of "everything he can get" the bottom line is that all he is after is for some degree of competitive parity with Westjet which -- regardless of what some may like to think -- is the main competitor to AC domestically and growing at 50% per annum. While you may only be 5% ahead of an equivalent WJ mechanic, it would be interesting to see how far ahead a WJ mechanic is in terms of productivity (ie. how many WJ mechanics does it take to do the same job you do or more precisely, how many of you are required to do the job of one WJ mechanic). I don't know the answer to the productivity question but I understand that the recent management presentation does a pretty detailed comparison (not done by management but by their advisors who also advised both Continental and USAirways during their bankruptcies) of every employee group at WJ and AC using identical measures. So if you're confident that you are being paid what the market dictates -- or close to it -- you've got nothing to fear since all Milton is looking for is to bring rates closer to market -- and that's not just wage scales but productivity as well. Again -- good luck to us all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 How is Milton trying to "rape" you. If what you're after is to split away from the groundhandling side of your union, it seems to me that the only person with the same agenda as you is Milton and your best bet of ever achieving what you want is sticking with Milton. In terms of "everything he can get" the bottom line is that all he is after is for some degree of competitive parity with Westjet which -- regardless of what some may like to think -- is the main competitor to AC domestically and growing at 50% per annum. While you may only be 5% ahead of an equivalent WJ mechanic, it would be interesting to see how far ahead a WJ mechanic is in terms of productivity (ie. how many WJ mechanics does it take to do the same job you do or more precisely, how many of you are required to do the job of one WJ mechanic). I don't know the answer to the productivity question but I understand that the recent management presentation does a pretty detailed comparison (not done by management but by their advisors who also advised both Continental and USAirways during their bankruptcies) of every employee group at WJ and AC using identical measures. So if you're confident that you are being paid what the market dictates -- or close to it -- you've got nothing to fear since all Milton is looking for is to bring rates closer to market -- and that's not just wage scales but productivity as well. Again -- good luck to us all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Airmail, I have everything to fear, the IAM will be more than eager to make drastic reductions in my wages in order to cut some kind of deal with the company to save their precious unskilled, the IAM VP Ritchie has stated in public "F#$K maintenance".The company has asked for a ten year agreement, starting with a 10% wage reduction, you can bet the farm in face to face it will be much more than 10, then how many years of no increase, West Jet AME's will be miles ahead by the end of the agreement, so yes, I am about to be raped. As to the man per Aircraft, I can not speak for other departments, but for myself, I work 767 and A340, on a good day I may have 2 AME's for a 767 service check but on average 1, just ME, on the 340, the same thing, A330 same.This brings me to another point, at West Jet, the AME's have to have a 737 only to worry about, I have to be qualified on 767, A340,A330, more responsibility, training, and technical knowledge, I am sure you will agree, that is worth more than 5%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 I agree with you. In fact, I happen to think that AC mechanics are the most skilled, knowledgeable and qualified in the industry and deserve a premium over those at airlines like WJ. However, our customers are unwilling to pay a premium just to be able to fly on aircraft which have been certified by you and that is a sad but true fact in our world today. Therefore if our customers are unwilling to pay that premium, how can AC afford to pay such a premium unless the value is made up elsewhere (ie. productivity, benefits, etc)? That's just an equation which has to balance at the end of the day or else it just isn't sustainable. It seems to me that Milton's plan for a separate AC Tech Services is your best hope. Just look at Lufthansa Technik or, better yet, Swissair Technics (now known as SR Technics) which survived Swissair's bankruptcy/disappearance. If you truly believe in your worth in the marketplace (and I agree with your assessment of your worth), your best and only true hope of ever maintain that worth is by becoming a part of a business where your personal value and the collective value of your peers can be judged on its own merits without the noise created by other parts of an organization. In other words, don't let less efficient/valuable pieces of the business drag you down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 I agree with you. In fact, I happen to think that AC mechanics are the most skilled, knowledgeable and qualified in the industry and deserve a premium over those at airlines like WJ. However, our customers are unwilling to pay a premium just to be able to fly on aircraft which have been certified by you and that is a sad but true fact in our world today. Therefore if our customers are unwilling to pay that premium, how can AC afford to pay such a premium unless the value is made up elsewhere (ie. productivity, benefits, etc)? That's just an equation which has to balance at the end of the day or else it just isn't sustainable. It seems to me that Milton's plan for a separate AC Tech Services is your best hope. Just look at Lufthansa Technik or, better yet, Swissair Technics (now known as SR Technics) which survived Swissair's bankruptcy/disappearance. If you truly believe in your worth in the marketplace (and I agree with your assessment of your worth), your best and only true hope of ever maintaining that worth is by becoming a part of a business where your personal value and the collective value of your peers can be judged on its own merits without the noise created by other parts of an organization. In other words, don't let less efficient/valuable pieces of the business drag you down. Be hopeful. This too will pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Airmail, don't get me wrong,I am willing to forgo items in my contract, I realize the company is in deep.I have stated that I am willing to give up longevity pay, my 2.5 raise due in june, my meal credit for working O/T, even having O/T a a straight time and a half, I already work a 4x4 shift which eliminates the companies requirement to pay $4000 per annum in stat pay and also makes my off duty life rather enjoyable, also it would not take much to convince me to forgo my license premium, all these add up in the dollar figure, but my base salary, I am sorry, but that is an item I am not willing to negotiate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Robert: Believe it or not, that's absolutely fine! Milton didn't say anything about just touching your base pay. If you and your colleagues can come up with a list of items which add up to your portion of the $770 million, then your base salary and many of the other items you value remain intact. The only thing that cannot be compromised is the $770 million savings target which is the only way we can get all the other creditors to take haircuts as well. If one group -- just one -- balks at their haircut, then this thing goes the way of the dodo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted May 4, 2003 Author Share Posted May 4, 2003 .....sigh.... Robert and his colleagues (myself included of course) could come up with any list we liked and it wouldn't accomplish a single thing. We won't have any say in how the IAM deals with this. Ritchie and the bandits will make their decisions with complete and total disregard for the wishes of those of us within maintenance. As usual. Until we have our own bargaining unit our voice means nothing. The only way that will happen, or so it seems at least, is if the company does it for us by getting out of the baggage and cargo handling business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Mitch: Again, that seems to be the direction this is heading -- only the company's plan is to split ACTS from Air Canada Groundhandling both operating independently in entirely different businesses. So it seems that your best hope of accomplishing what you want is by backing Milton's plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Hi guys, If Ritchie says FK Maintenance, Why not tell Ritchie and the IAM to go FK themselves? Nobody forces you to be in a union, to pay your dues, least not at ACPA, nor in Canada as far as I know. Can you not do like ACPA did, quit the IAM and start the ACAMEA. I am sure there must be a reason you are having difficulty, I just do not know what it is.. Brings me to another topic, that is CAMA. What is the Coles notes on the development and progress of CAMA. Fill me in. I can see why Milton wants to break up the IAM. Within the IAM, AMEs legitimize a group of unskilled labourers, many with false illusions of what their skill level fetches on the open market, along with some distorted sense of entitlement. The sooner RM can separate the skilled from the unskilled, he can start to negotiate with those groups in a realistic, open market manner, as opposed to this false environment.. Better to compensate a few who have sacrificed to become what they have rather than to compensate a larger number that have, by virtue of good fortune alone, affiliated with those that have [made sacrifice, not even mentioning education, responsibilities etc]. Sorry this is brief and not worded to well, I am off to have a nice ‘family day’ in the sunshine.. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Airmail, You and Mitch are both correct, but there is one big problem, line maintenance is staying with the main line, this will leave us attached to the station folk if AC retains majority ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Dragon, what is your e-mail, I will send you some info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airmail Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Yes but will line maintenance be part of the new AC groundhandling company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Robert, For the purpose of this board, you may reply to; aefdragon@hotmail.com cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 I fully understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 No it will not, but as stated, if AC retains majority ownership, common employer status exists, and therefore the bargaining unit in the eyes of the cirb will remain intack, mind you, with just line maintenance, CAMA would then be at aprox 75%.Things would then become interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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