Guest Glen Comerford Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 The joining of Jazz and Air Canada Pilots. Be open here folks this is not a solution that has even been put out by either group! This is my own personal opinion. I also understand that it will have to be negotiated with the Company. I am putting this forward because I feel that we can not keep going down the road that we are on as it is ruining our profession for everyone. It is based upon agreements that have been used in different parts of the world and some of my own ideas humbly. First I am not proposing a merger of the two groups in which there will be the perception of winners and losers. I.e. if you are a 25 year regional Captain and you do not become a 767 captain or a 340 First Officer that will become a Dash 8 FO. What I am proposing is; a flow though agreement that will ensure that if you are at the regional you will get a chance to move to Air Canada mainline, or choose to protect your seniority at the regional. I realize that for some life style is more important than type of aircraft. I also realize that for some people that the thought of going to the mainline does not appeal to them for personal reasons. I also know that others feel that they are trapped at the regional with no chance of movement. This will try to appease everyone hopefully. Given a chance, this will possibly help prevent the whip sawing that is currently going on. It may also stop this race to the bottom that we have started. It does not hurt the junior members of either union. If you are at the bottom of the regional you will not have 3400 more pilots on top of you in the event of a major down turn. If you are at the mainline you will not have the company using the regional pilots against you because we will have an agreement and will end up with more members in the union below you. The flow agreement that I am purposing starts like this. 1. There will be two seniority lists. 2. Air Canada will do all hiring though the regional list. 3. Pilots will move in order of seniority from Jazz to Air Canada. 4. On moving from the Regional to the main line pay will remain the same. 5. You will keep your benefits and holiday allotment. 6. All Senior Pilots that are able to hold the Left Seat at the regional will be able to decide if they want to join the seniority list at Air Canada, this will be a one time offer. (You do not have to be a Captain, but able to hold it by your seniority number based upon the amount of captains required). Pilots will be given the choice in order of seniority. If the pilot chooses to move onto the list at Air Canada they become a part of the ACPA list, but will still be flying at the regional until a position is available at the mainline. If the pilot chooses not to join the mainline list their position at the regional is protected. How it will basically work. If the pilots at Jazz have made the choice not to join the Air Canada list or not yet had the chance because of seniority you can not be bumped out of your position by a layoff at Air Canada mainline. The senior people that choose to stay can maintain their life style, seniority and know that their position is forever protected. The junior members do not have to worry about lay offs at the mainline and will know that they will have the choice of remaining at the regional, or moving to the mainline, when their seniority allows them to hold a Captains position. If you hold a Captains position out of seniority you will not be bumped out of your position because a pilot senior to you that holds a First Officers position has chosen to move to the mainline. If you choose to place yourself on the mainline list, you will then move to the mainline in order of seniority, and join the bottom of the list. If there is a lay off from the mainline, people will be let go in order of seniority. I realize that it may be a risk moving to the bottom of the list at ACPA, but you join the bottom of the list if you move to Air Canada. The flow down into positions at the regional would happen until there were no position left by members that had decided to move to the mainline, then the lay offs would come directly from the mainline. This covers the best of all worlds. Everyone at Jazz has a future to move to the mainline if they choose. The pilots of Jazz will be able to move up the seniority list by movement to Air Canada and by retirements at the regional. The pilots of Jazz that choose not to move to the mainline know that their position is protected, that they will be able to maintain their life style. The pilots of Air Canada and Jazz and will not have the company using each other against them. We will start working together!!! The pilots at Jazz gain access to any future growth at the Mainline, and as they move up, enhanced layoff protection by the hiring at the bottom of Jazz. Essentially, the goal of this proposal is to preserve the wages and working conditions of those Jazz Pilots that choose to remain at the regional or are Junior. It also offers any Regional Pilot a chance to move up to the mainline without any financial or pension losses, if they so choose. I realize that there is a possibility of lay offs at the mainline. I am not asking Jazz to do this merger now so that they will be laid off instead. We could build a fence that waits until the first Jazz Pilot moves up, before any possibility of flow down could commence, or perhaps a time frame maybe. There are a lot of ways to make this work. It is only a beginning to start a dialog. Please take it as some sort of start, it does not have to remain the same, but something has to be done, and the sooner the better. If you feel that some sort of deal should be done let your union reps know. Do not be intimidated by the past, think of the future!! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terminated Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 I appreciate the desire, and you have many good ideas. And as you pointed out, it would not be worth it to agree to it (from a Jazz perspective) right now, only to provide layoff protection to the mainliners. But you mentioned a way to possibly address that. My biggest concern, is just that it doesn't really do anything to solve the short term issue, or competing for the 76-110 seat work. The fact is there is still motivation for both sides to try to get it away from the other, even if your plan is implemented. Having said that, I don't know what we can do to prevent that, but at least we can try to fix it for the longer term future (hoping we all have on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frog Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Why would management accept that proposition? Increases training costs as crews bump down, increased costs as they keep years of service and other benefits etc etc etc. Essentially, the benefit flows to pilots who want to go to AC at a cost to the company. It is cheaper and easier to keep to sererate companies and two seperate lists. Let the pilot decide who he wants to work for. In a time when unnecessary cost should be avoided this would be a good example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Paddler Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Excellent post Glen! This is a great idea. I can see some pilots at both groups balking at this plan right now, but it's certainly something that should be looked at in the near future. Although there might be some problems with your initial proposal, with some adjustments it could become a viable plan for all involved. It sure would ease the strain between the two groups. It would also stop both group's wages from hitting rock bottom. Glad to see there is some creative thinking out there. ...just the thought of an AC RJ guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1V2Vgo Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Hey Glen, Great food for thought. A coupla potholes. Is a Transport Cat 1 medical good enough? The AC medical has been the downfall of many a hopeful regional pilot. I'm not saying lower the standard, but,a point to consider. Is an interview still on, and the sim check etc. etc. etc. What are your thoughts? The process has to be streamlined, or it is a non starter. Cheers, V1V2Vgo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shamus Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 I am sorry but this is the same old story I have heard so many times before. Separate Bargaining Units Separate Lists End Tailing of Lists The only successful mergers of seniority lists have been based upon Date of Hire with seat protection in no flush/bump clauses. Read this for what it is. If you create division in the Jazz pilot group by establishing those who are staying and those who want to go, you have played the management game - divide them and you win. Glen, had you had a single pilot group this competition and bad feeling would have never arisen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BillyBigToe Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 I have to agree with Shamus (except the DOH part, which is a NON-starter). How would the flow-through list have any benefit for ACPA regarding the whipsawing that Jazz just demonstrated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BillyBigToe Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Wadaya mean? Are the Dash 8's up for bidding by our 350-400? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.70 mach Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Glen, Very good post with a lot of thought and intelligence put into it. What we have going on right in front of our own eyes is a good ol fashion "whip saw". Jazz might get these 75 seaters or even the 110 seater or the powerful presence of ACPA may prevail who knows. And the solution has been in front of our eyes for the last ten years. I personally don't care about Picher, Pineau, the AO lawsuit and so forth. What am I interested in is how my career is being affected by the fallouts of these "little wars"....! What can we do? A flowthrough, I'm in ...so I'll study for the written test, prepare for the sim eval, cog test, interview and finally the medical and if all goes well I hope to be placed in a pool and hired in a low ratio from off the street.......Sorry been there, still waiting and was told everything went well ...go figure! But is that the solution to the problem? There was talk awhile ago about Jazz pilots wanting BOTL. But if any of these new plane appear at Jazz then the line drawn in the sand has shifted and someone might think "why would a Captain on the CRJ-700 want to leave to sit bottom." "Why should we hope for an end tail of our list when we might have a fleet of 85 jets (55 CRJ 200's & 30 70 seaters) and the shear number of the jet will give me my upgrade." DOH is a non issue here. Canadian guys and gals never got so why should we. Even as far back as the Picher award ,as victorious as it was for the connectors it still wasn't a true DOH. Maybe look at the seniority of ACPA and where the 110 seats might fit in, example if 10 years gets you a left seat now maybe ratio in the Jazz pilots there. I don't know, don't flame me on that one, just an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Glen: I appreciate what your trying to do. However what you have described (Scope/flowthru)is an accomodation that has been an abject failure over time on every property it has been tried. Without exception. Hows about one bargaining agent, one list and plenty big fences to protect the current members? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Good on you Glen for keeping the topic alive. Here's what I've observed. Unit A is in hard times while Unit B has an opportunity for growth and stability. Unit A says, "hey, maybe we should suck it up and bury the hatchet, for the good of us all". Unit B responds with a smug "we'll think about it". Next day, the table is turned. Unit A is offered a reprieve, and Unit B is going to take a beating. Unit B has a change of heart about the whole thing. Unit B says "hey, maybe we should suck it up and bury the hatchet, for the good of us all". Unit A, well you get the picture. This is an infinite loop. As long as pilots have the "I'm OK, screw you" attitude, we will all lose. And, of course, this lesson is not lost on our masters. What's this, solidarity forming? Time to turn the tables slightly and let the pilots do the rest of the heavy lifting themselves. Doh! So, the first step in any agreement is that everyone, EVERYONE has to walk away with more than they have right now. There can't be even a temporary hit for later gain, because the assumption of the later gain is false. Let's keep tweaking your proposal and maybe we'll get it right. It is a positive sign to see this discussion. Just my opinion Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Good on you Glen for keeping the topic alive. Here's what I've observed. Unit A is in hard times while Unit B has an opportunity for growth and stability. Unit A says, "hey, maybe we should suck it up and bury the hatchet, for the good of us all". Unit B responds with a smug "we'll think about it". Next day, the table is turned. Unit A is offered a reprieve, and Unit B is going to take a beating. Unit B has a change of heart about the whole thing. Unit B says "hey, maybe we should suck it up and bury the hatchet, for the good of us all". Unit A, well you get the picture. This is an infinite loop. As long as pilots have the "I'm OK, screw you" attitude, we will all lose. And, of course, this lesson is not lost on our masters. What's this, solidarity forming? Time to turn the tables slightly and let the pilots do the rest of the heavy lifting themselves. Doh! So, the first step in any agreement is that everyone, EVERYONE has to walk away with more than they have right now. There can't be even a temporary hit for later gain, because the assumption of the later gain is false. Let's keep tweaking your proposal and maybe we'll get it right. It is a positive sign to see this discussion. Just my opinion Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hawkeye Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 BillyBigtoe, for someone who claims he is not biased to either ACPA or ALPA sure tows the line of ACPA views. Quote: "How would the flow-through list have any benefit for ACPA regarding the whipsawing that Jazz just demonstrated?" Sure sounds like a ACPA line to me. Further up in an earlier post by Skirt, you agreed with her sharp remarks too. There are other posts that seem to support a obvious trend here. I have yet to see a post where you support a ALPA viewpoint. Granted, I haven't been able to read all posts, however you think I would have come across maybe just one. I realize that you are entitled to share your views and casts support to ever you wish but please don't be so obviously biased when you claim to be not choosing either side(ALPA/ACPA). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Glen Comerford Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Yes it is cheaper to keep the groups apart but this is a detriment to us all as pilots. If you are worried about saving the company money do it by earning your salary that you make by saving fuel and running the most efficient operation you can. I am not saying that you do not but our salaries are not bankrupting the company it is how the company is being run!! We can only do our small part. If the company was worried about the cost of courses they sure are not showing it by laying off 350 to 400 pilots at the mainline. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Glen Comerford Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 I have never understood the reasoning by not taking someone with a Transport Cat 1 medical unless they find something big. The doctors do not have a crystal ball to say that you are going to make it to 60!! They have hired many that have not made it to 60 and not taken others that have finished their careers at other companies with no problems. I would not see this as a stumbling block. I also feel that if they trust you to fly Air Canada Passengers that you should not have to prove that again. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Glen Comerford Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Read my post above. I am sorry that you feel that way. I am looking for a common ground. Could you tell me who has merged DOH in aviation? Oh wait I think Ward Air and Canadian did merge DOH but I think almost all Pilots at Ward Air were junior. Any others? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Glen Comerford Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Pilots at Jazz are going to have to realize that the biding on the 75 to 110 seat jets is very short sited. An airplane is an airplane if a RJ or a Dash is not good enough to retire on what makes you think that 110 seats will be. The complaining will start that ACPA is doing all the heavy work and is holding us down. The company will laugh and let you bid on it for 100$ per hour. What a road we are starting down. With some sort of flow or merger you will get a chance at that work. This will include better pay and pension. I will tell you why someone would want to sit at the bottom. 1. If you were to move from the left seat at Jazz on the RJ to the right seat of the 320 at Air Canada you would be getting a 20 percent raise. (I do not know if this figure is exact now but it was.) 2. You would also have a better pension. 3. You would have a chance to even move up to bigger planes and make more money. 4. You would have more choices on destinations and types of flying Most of these reasons are why we have 330, 320, BA 146, L1011, 757 pilots coming from other carriers. If we have a flow none of the regular interview procedures need apply. If Air Canada wants to control who they hire they can do it by having a part in the hiring at Jazz. I am just trying to answer some of your questions they are not intended to inflame. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hawkeye Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 ((("Could you tell me who has merged DOH in aviation? Oh wait I think Ward Air and Canadian did merge DOH but I think almost all Pilots at Ward Air were junior. Any others?"))) Air Canada Regional merged with Canadian Regional Airlines. DOH!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Glen Comerford Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 I think that trying to get one list will be hard for the company to swallow. They have wanted to keep the contracts separate with benefits and negatives for the type of flying done by each group. If we could get the company to do it then ok, but you have members that will not want to go to Air Canada and this has always caused problems. If the company will not allow it to have one bargaining group is a bad idea. A union can not represent each group fairly when there is not a common list. ALPA has a hard time with this in the U.S. I would love to be able to bring all aircraft under one roof because I have never understood the reasoning why an aircraft suddenly becomes too small or has the wrong types of engines. I never understood why the regionals did not want the beech 1900 to stay in the fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Glen Comerford Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Good example. Yes they did and they both had a common fleet types and route structure so I can see why. No windfall gains. Try a merger of mainlines. Just a friendly exercise. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Sowsun Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 There have also been 2 other DOH merges that I was part of. In 1990 or 1991, Air Toronto, Frontier Airlines, and Canadian Partner (Ontario Express) all merged DOH under ALPA . This produced a list of approx 280 pilots. Within 1 or 2 years, pretty well all of the Air Toronto and Frontier routes and aircraft were abandoned. By 1993, the slashing of routes (combined with the inability to compete with Air Ontario, and the recession), resulted in approx 200 Layoffs. Then, just as the last one were being laid off, Canadian Partner (Ontario Express) merged with TIME AIR and formed Canadian Regional Airlines. The common collective agreement was signed too late to prevent any layoffs in the east and most were laid off for 2-4 years. Some, when recalled, ended up flying as F/Os to Captains who were junior to them. Mike Sowsun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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