What's ACPA's Problem?

[Guest JW]

I suspect that no matter how logical or forceful the arguments I make, there will be a segment of the readership that will twist this post and fail to comprehend the point.

Off the top, I’ll repeat my position on Jazz. I’m a believer, and have been for a long while, that there should be a comprehensive solution to mainline/connector integration.

Generally, too, wrt to CCAA, I’m more in the “do-whatever-it-takes-to-survive” CCAA camp, than not.

Right off the top, too, I will also concede that I do not support ACPA on all issues, and that the union probably has made some errors along the way.

Many of you posting here, even some analyst comments in the press, have very little to NO comprehension of the impact of some of the major issues being asked of the AC pilots. Obviously the issues are fairly complex, even for the judges involved in the CCAA.

The work and working conditions of ACPA have been besieged for the past decade and half or more. Certainly the rise of connectors was the being of a major area of confrontation as AC created an obvious attempt to bypass the AC pilots and the collective agreements of the AC workforce.

ACPA has also likely provided some sober second thought on management issues, likely providing cost savings, too. AC management certainly does not have all the answers – I believe that MUST be pretty obvious to even the most anti-ACPA observers.

The CCAA management offer presented to the AC pilots bears no resemblance or comparison in balance and fairness offered to the other unions by my quick reading, and admitted somewhat sketchy information of those packages.

The demands placed before the AC pilots and the ACPA union appear to be so imbalanced, unfair and unreasonable in comparison that the only conclusion one can arrive at is that this is about busting ACPA forever. It appears to be more about retribution than about solving the CCAA problem. At some point, despite the most earnest desire to see AC survive, recover and thrive – YES, that IS the most heartfelt desire of the vast majority of AC pilots including me – the offer is so out of whack that it would never pass ratification anyway. The ONLY clout that the ACPA members have is now, because signing onto AC’s demands would emasculate the union almost entirely.

The Government of Canada made it clear during our last round of negotiations that they were willing to negotiate us back to work. The power of withdrawal of services is not an option. Locking into a multi-year contract is fine – so long as that is bargained in good faith, and mutual respect.

One of a couple of key points in Greg Brenneman’s article about saving Continental Airlines was that the management team that led you into bankruptcy is not the one that can lead you out. Nothing will fundamentally change. Another is that the employees must be on side with getting back to having fun at work, and that must be achieved with respect, even through the bloodletting that will inevitably occur.

The AC offer is not about 600 jobs. It is not about the 800 jobs. Those figures do not even include the transfer of flying to Jazz in the whipsaw AC has fashioned. This will mean more like 1/3 of the AC mainline jobs, in the order of 1000 jobs, with very little prospect for more hiring. There will be an attrition of pilots as the mainline shrinks, and AC transfers more and more work to Jazz under the current scenario proposed by AC.

The jobs WILL flow to Jazz. AC mainline is planned to shrivel, and there is little to no ability under the AC proposals to follow that work. Certainly the various unions won’t facilitate the ability to follow work. Some group within this process apparently visualizes, and expects that mainline pilots can simply shift over – in some dream, maybe. Hopping over to Jazz is not possible for the reason I just mentioned, but also because there is no common SOP. When Jazz acquired the RJ, they elected for follow their own plan and set up their own SOP. Fine, but there is no ability to simply hop from one RJ to another - I’m pretty certain TC would balk at that. So, since the SOPs are not common, there would have to be a full course and sims so there’s no saving. All of that is moot anyway with no union transfer agreements.

Jazz pilots are currently pretty happy with the prospect of major growth and hiring there. But hopefully their enthusiasm is tempered with the reality that ACPA will be working very hard to keep the jobs at the mainline. Once again, as we have seen in past issue of common interest, this will NOT be a negotiation against ALPA, but more FOR the ACPA members. As unions, and members, are once again on a confrontational path, repeating history. Viewing this process, hopefully there are SOME of you that can comprehend that ACPA members will be trying their utmost to hang onto their jobs, including many that have taken major decrements in pay and lifestyle to take up jobs at the mainline. I’m sure even the most jaded of you can comprehend the upheaval that some of these people about to be furloughed are feeling.

There is not doubt that ACPA pilots WILL have to take a major pay cut, and decrement in their overall working conditions. I’m convinced that the majority of members are willing to give it up in a major fashion. BUT there MUST be some comprehension that the whole career is being tossed with the company demands. The spin has been very anti-pilot, and the project appears to be more about retribution than one of problem solving. The fact that we HAVE already approved a 10% temporary put cut appears to be totally discounted in almost every item I’ve read.

Many of the ACPA members actually make LESS than members of the some of those other AC unions, and the cries of “overpaid ACPA members” wears very thin, very fast. The pay structure of pilots is very different than most other unions, including flight attendants. The demands upon ACPA in this CCAA far exceed the other unions. It appears that ACPA has been isolated to apply pressure to concede. The only conclusion one can draw is that management at AC can then point to the success of crushing ACPA or blame the failure of AC on ACPA.

I want AC to survive. I believe we’ll have to make major concessions. I can not support the demands that AC has made, and IF the AC fails, it will because their has been such a poor relationship between ACPA and AC. There’s a long, rocky history, and not one of mutual respect. These issue usually have at least two sides.

I’m disappointed in comments by some, including well known analysts that purport to have a complete picture. The demands up the AC pilot WAWCON is – in basic terms – excessive. This is NOT a suggestion for a solution but one of domination, extraction some sort of retribution, busting the ACPA union and maybe even to vengeance. This is certainly NOT about solving a problem of vested interest, nor mutual respect as Mr. Brenneman mentioned in “All at Once and Right Away”. We’d all like to go back to work WANTING to do the job.

I would dearly love to see a sensible concession package. We DO have to give it up for AC, in balance with some sense and equality.

...just my opinion.

JW

[Guest WA777]

Jim
On the mainline/connector integration...I agree that this could and would have happened a long time ago if it had not been for the "AO Lawsuit"......It became THE major impediment IMO and it certainly changed my attitude about trying to find a solution.....

[Seeker]

As an outside observer, the lawsuit is no more wrong than the action that spawned it in the first place.

[Guest WA777]

Therefore it is THE major impediment.......

[Seeker]

Actually, I've re-thought this, the action that spawned the lawsuit IS more wrong than the lawsuit.

[Guest Kal]

JW if what you have stated in your second paragraph had occurred there would be no need for the rest of your disertation. We would be all travelling down a different road all together.

The Connectors recognised the potential for this catastrophie in their infancy. In fact within 4 months of accepting the offer to join your union they had all greed to join witht the AC pilots in a process defined for the most part by AC pilots.

You know the rest. In my view the radical fringe using the same type of hysterical catastrophising they are using today won control over a group of largely rational people.

The fact is the same type of off the wall, over the top radicalism is going to take you right down the toilet. Lest we forget who authored a little piece called "Lest We Forget" That little bit of obsenity was directed by a pilot toward another group of pilots working for the same employer as he was!


The fact is that all union groups had the same type of stink bomb dropped on their lap by management. All of the other groups were willing to at least recognise that a signifigant level of pain was going to occur to survive( the first pilot lay off notices for JAZZ were sent this week). They all chose to fasion the pain in a way that satisfied the Co. demand to their own way.

RB's shrill cry of wholesale transfer of work is nothing more than his own worst case scenario that would have been impossible had he and others had not fashioned the current dichotomy of employee groups in the first place.

He can no more accurately predict how many a/c will be at JAZZ vz ML vz Zip vs whatever in 2009 than he can predict what the TSX or Dow will be on that date.

The a/c were talking about are the same size or smaller than JAZZ has flown for years. I seriously doubt that there will be a market need for hundreds of em. JAZZ started the merger with 135 a/c. We are operating 88 now.

And what if JAZZ becomes a raging succcess. Do you think that maybe just perhaps by the company thriving in the short haul/ domestic transborder then maybe, just maybe a new and revitalised AC may not have just 123 mainline airplanes but hundreds.

The JAZZ MEC reps stated at general meeting months ago that they recognised that a labour accomodation was a probably in everyone's best interest. Since then they have stated that all attempts at even contacting their counter parts at the other pilot union have been rebuffed with a FO and die response.

I believe them. I sure don't believe what your guy says and by all accounts very few except the devotees do.

I sincerely hope their is a rebirth of a new and exciting entity that can include all. My fear is that the some prefer abortion.

[Guest Kal]

JW if what you have stated in your second paragraph had occurred there would be no need for the rest of your disertation. We would be all travelling down a different road all together.

The Connectors recognised the potential for this catastrophie in their infancy. In fact within 4 months of accepting the offer to join your union, they had all agreed to join with the AC pilots in a process of integration defined for the most part by AC pilots.

You know the rest. In my view the radical fringe using the same type of hysterical catastrophising they are using today won control over a group of largely rational people.

The fact is the same type of off the wall, over the top radicalism is going to take you right down the toilet. Lest we forget who authored a "Lest We Forget" That little bit of obsenity was directed a group of pilots toward another group of pilots working for the same employer as he was!


The fact is that all union groups had the same type of stink bomb dropped on their lap by management. All of the other groups were willing to at least recognise that a signifigant level of pain was going to occur to survive(the first pilot lay off notices for JAZZ were sent this week). They all chose to fasion the pain in a way that satisfied the Co. demand to their own way.

RB's shrill cry of wholesale transfer of work is nothing more than his own worst case scenario that would have been impossible had he and others had not fashioned the current dichotomy of employee groups.

Even so, he can no more accurately predict how many a/c will be at JAZZ vz ML vz Zip vs whatever in 2009 than he can predict what the TSX or Dow will be on that date.

The a/c were talking about are the same size or smaller than JAZZ has flown for years. I seriously doubt that there will be a market need for hundreds of em. JAZZ started the merger with 135 a/c. We are operating 88 now.

And what if JAZZ becomes a raging succcess. Do you think that maybe just perhaps by the company thriving in the short haul/ domestic transborder then maybe, just maybe a new and revitalised AC may not have just 123 mainline airplanes but hundreds.

The JAZZ MEC reps stated at a general meeting months ago that they recognised that a labour accomodation was a probably in everyone's best interest. Since then they have stated that all attempts at even contacting their counter parts at the other pilot union have been rebuffed with a FO and die response.

I believe them. I sure don't believe what your guy says and by all accounts very few except the devotees do.

I sincerely hope their is a rebirth of a new and exciting entity that can include all. My fear is that the some prefer abortion.
IMHO
Good luck

[Guest Nova Zemlya]

I think we are at the end run of the protection of priviledges far and above any market rationale. Laws are there to defend rights, but are also used to defend priviledge. Both pilot groups are guilty of legal wrangling, but by far the greater fallout has been the actions of ACPA.

The important thing for ACPA to remember in this situation is that 600 jobs to the regional is an exceedingly light penalty when compared to 3500 jobs to WJ or Skyservice, or whatever is there to replace AC.

Star Alliance, touted as being good for the airline business is the likely operator for AC code share on long-haul. United and Lufthansa could sure use some extra passengers. Only you wouldn't fly overseas from Canada for a few months. We may be feeling the full effect of globalization against national transportaion policy very abruptly, if Ottawa continues to distance itself from the mothercorp.

I imagine that Jazz-Regional is very well positioned with tentative agreements in hand to continue to operate in the most grievous of circumstances, should the mothercorp bail.

Heck, I'll toss bags, tow or marshall aircraft, and clean toilets to make it work.

[Guest Kal]

JW if what you have stated in your second paragraph had occurred there would be no need for the rest of your dissertation. We would be all travelling down a different road all together.

The Connectors recognised the potential for this catastrophe in their infancy. In fact within 4 months of accepting the offer to join your union, they had all agreed to join with the AC pilots in a process of integration defined for the most part by AC pilots.

You know the rest. In my view the radical fringe using the same type of hysterical catastrophising they are using today won control over a group of largely rational people.

The fact is the same type of off the wall, over the top radicalism is going to take you right down the toilet. Lest we forget who authored a piece called "Lest We Forget" That little bit of obscenity was directed by a leader of a group of pilots toward another group of pilots working for the same employer! Irrational at best.

The fact is that all union groups had the same type of stink bomb dropped on their lap by management. All of the other groups were willing to at least recognise that a significant level of pain was going to occur to survive(the first pilot lay off notices for JAZZ were sent this week). They all chose to fashion the pain in a way that satisfied the Co. demand to their own way.

RB's shrill cry of wholesale transfer of work is nothing more than his own worst case scenario that would have been impossible had he and others had not fashioned the current dichotomy of employee groups.

Even so, he can no more accurately predict how many a/c will be at JAZZ vz ML vz Zip vs whatever in 2009 than he can predict what the TSX or Dow will be on that date.

The a/c we’re talking about are the same size or smaller than JAZZ has flown for years. I seriously doubt that there will be a market need for hundreds of em. JAZZ started the merger with 135 a/c. We are operating 88 now.

And what if JAZZ becomes a raging success. Do you think that maybe just perhaps by the company thriving in the short haul/ domestic transborder then maybe, just maybe a new and revitalized AC may not have just 123 big airplanes but hundreds of em.

The JAZZ MEC reps stated at a general meeting months ago that they recognised that a labour accommodation in this restructuring was probably in everyone's best interest. Since then they have stated that all attempts at even contacting their counter parts at the ACPA have been rebuffed with a F$%# Off and die response. I believe them. I sure don't believe what your guy says and by all accounts very few except the devotees do.

I also don’t believe for a second that anything ACPA proposes will involve any other than the complete and final solution for JAZZ and employees. That’s the difference between the two. The Jazz option provides for the highest probability of the entire organization to thrive. And if the lunatics weren’t running the asylum over there the JAZZ option maybe just maybe could have offered the greatest amount of equitable employment opportunities for all of the pilots employed by A.C.E. ACPA will demand the death of JAZZ or complete the evisceration it stared in 1993. One way or the other If ACPA has their way JAZZ will die, in all likelihood this little CCAA game will be repeated for you in a couple of years at best. That’s my opinion

I sincerely hope their is a rebirth of a new and exciting entity that can include all. My fear is that the some prefer abortion.
IMHO
Good luck

[milehighclub]

You just described 15 years of history at the regionals. Excellent Smithers.

MHC

[Guest Kal]

TY

[Guest CJ]

I will be completly disgusted if ACPA puts the boots to JAZZ yet again. I hope and pray The Justice is able to see the Injustice ACPA has inflicted upon the Regionals. We have a excellent group of employees ready,willing and eager to grow our portion of this company. Perhaps this time in history ACPA will take the high road and allow every pilot at Air Canada to be respected equally. Sunday morning seems so far away.