Spoke too soon, ACPA now only holdout

[Guest Virtual]

No...the answer isn't simple. Have you been
reading some of the posts prior to yours? Your
post doesn't seem to indicate that you have.

[Guest Labtec]

Croupier:

I think the reason that guys are so upset is that they joined a profession. They spent a tremendous amount of money and time learning how to fly, educating themselves at university and then getting the experience necessary to join a well paid group of technical professionals. For that effort it is proposed that many of them now get laid off and many others that remain earn 40k/year. I could have skipped university, aviation college, and the military and earned that smashing bags on the ramp in YYZ, or hanging drywall in Oakville.

It is an affront of the highest order that on the CL65 at Air Canada the gal serving the F/O his Scooby snack earns 20K/year more than he does at the controls of the airplane. It will be worse if AC gets their way.

My guess is that many of the talented professionals in this business will simply move on. Many are engineers, and lawyers and we even have a few Doctors in the cockpit at AC. I can assure you those folks won't be sticking around. Professional people want to be part of a profession for the satisfaction and challenge of doing an interesting job and they want to get paid well to do it. These people at AC you see in the pointy end picked aviation as their profession because of certain underlying aspects of the job. Compensation is a big part of that. Many of these folks I have spoken with will just simply move on to the next challenge. As I said earlier the ALPA crabs are taking over and as far as I am concerned if they get their way the "prize" is theirs and I hope they enjoy their time in the bucket.

Labtec

[.70 mach]

"As I said earlier the ALPA crabs are taking over and as far as I am concerned if they get their way the "prize" is theirs and I hope they enjoy their time in the bucket. "

Labtec

Please give me a break !....this is about trying to save a bankrupt company.
Wine all you want about us being ALPA crabs trying to take over. I or one have a lot of friends at the mainline and wish them no harm. We all will weather this storm and make this a great company once again.

I will generalize here : you Labtec are the type of crab only a certain shampoo will get rid of.

[Don Hudson]

Labtec;

Re "My guess is that many of the talented professionals in this business will simply move on."

Well stated indeed, as was your entire post.

And those following on who would ordinarily choose the profession for all the exact reasons you outline will simply and quietly follow another path.

The "race to the bottom" as it has aptly been termed and which is almost complete, cannot help but leave indelible traces on the profession which will influence the coming generation of new pilots.

While insecurity has always been an aspect of the profession (consequently the clauses in the collective agreement addressing that), those with the desire, the talent and the discipline to accomplish and endure what it takes to make it, will avoid the Kmart-ization of the "job", in favour of other professions.

Why would one go to the expense, (A guess: - $30,000 for a degree, $40,000 for the licenses?) for a chance to fly 18hr days in the bush for a chance to move up to what? For starting wages for an airline pilot at the major carrier? For the career potential, (meaning my 30-year wages that are soon to be about 45% lower?)

I don't think so.

[Don Hudson]

Labtec;

donandfran_hudson@telus.net

Can you drop me a line or alternatively, would you have a generic email address on yahoo/hotmail etc?

Don

[Guest Flytdeck]

>>[…agents, ramp, and F/A’s are the ones that should be taken the big hits at A/C not the pilots.] <<<<

There is some hesitation responding to your post as I am not certain you could actually be a pilot with Air Canada. To enlighten the very few who may actually consider there is some merit to your position:

(y) Every employee of this airline contributes to the bottom line. Some are paid more, some less.
(y) The majority of us depend on Air Canada as our primary source of family income.
(y) As a group, we use the tools provided to generate the corporate income.
(y) The success of our Company depends on decisions and policies of management, market variations, market capitalization, political whim, and THE ENERGY AND MOTIVATION OF EVERY INDIVIDUAL TO SEE THE COMPANY SUCCEED!

You must realise that the other unions HAVE taken some big hits in areas other than direct remuneration, though I suspect there are “hidden” salary reductions in the concession. An analogy might be our accepting everything in the Company proposal EXCEPT the 15% pay reduction. Acceptable???

Personally, I am more concerned than “pi$$ed off”. We are not the only airline in this position and possibly the concept of “National Flag Carrier” belongs to the Jurassic era of aviation. The market today is substantially different to the regulated market of previous decades. Both we and our corporate leaders have been complacent in preparing for current market realities and, unfortunately, one of those realities is improved productivity and lower labour costs with a “no-frills” product.

The directors of major companies do not serve the employees, but the interests of the shareholders and, if they can get away with it (thinking of CEO of American), themselves. Employees are considered as an adjunct to the bottom line. Thankfully, we have an intelligent and experienced negotiating team that knows bottom line has to be balanced with acceptable compensation.

One might think that if employees OWNED the company things would be better but then, United Airlines is an example of a business with a majority employee interest. It is apparent that employees are no better at running a company than “informed” management.

To value one group’s contribution over another’s is an error in perception. The fact some of us may have paid more for education and qualifications is not relevant. The only thing that really counts is that we placed our bets on Air Canada and if we are to win this bet, we all must participate in and contribute to it’s survival.

[Guest croupier]

My posting was in response to “sleveen’s who suggested that the “agents, ramp and flight attendants should be taking the big hits and not the pilots. I do in no way begrudge the higher salaries of pilots who’s remuneration is well deserved, but in all fairness taking a bigger hit on an already lower income is more drastic than a smaller “hit” from the higher incomes, the ones in the 100 to 200.000+ range.
Yes, I also know lawyers, doctors and many other professionals amongst my peers; this group of people is not exclusively fond amongst the pilots

[Guest HPT-TOUR]

Tell me Labtec, do professionals reneg on binding arbitration?, do they under-cut the regionals to fly RJ`s for -8 wages?, do they take pay cuts just to constantly change scope language?...... the list goes on, seems to me that you brought this on yourself. Real professional.

[Guest sleveen]

Just because a person is dependant on a company for their livelyhood or contributes to the bottom line does not in my opinion justify 40, 50, 60K, does a person working in a hotel bellhopping or checking in guests get paid this much, I doubt. Bet you some of them are raising a family, and if their not happy with their situation, they go and get a better education/better job, and get payed more money. That's the way it works, Pilots get payed more because they have invested alot of money and time in their careers , they carry a huge respondsibility, and deserve the money their given in return, Maintenance personal should be second in line but after that its just clerical and labour. If you think thats wrong just look at what the other airlines are paying their labour's/ agents. Pilots at the Lowcost are being payed less also for now but I believe their renumeration will come back into line, most of these companys are new and the pilots realize they have to take home less to help the company get on their feet, or they get renum. in different ways such as westjet.

[Guest Flytdeck]

>>>[…if their not happy with their situation, they go and get a better education/better job, and get payed more money]<<<
>>>[,,,the pilots realize they have to take home less to help the company get on their feet,…]<<<

Sleveen:

Precisely. We have been paid according to what our Company believes our services are worth. We have the option of seeking alternative employment if not satisfied with our lot within the Company. You do not have the ability to judge the quantity of remuneration for any individual. What is ‘fair’ is what the individual can achieve through individual or group negotiation. At the point the contract/agreement is signed, previous experience/education/training is irrelevant for both sides have agreed what the services of that individual are worth.

As pilots, we should recognise that there is a problem and we have to contribute to the solution. Our CRM training taught us that the best solution is arrived at by using all the resources available to resolve the difficulty. Pilots are one of the resources and we will have to make some contribution to the solution, ALONG WITH EVERYONE ELSE!

It is sad to see our Company in this position. It would be much better if we could have continued on and be in a position where this discussion was not necessary. But now we have arrived at this precipitous moment in our timeline, it is necessary that we ALL contribute to our survival. I have implicit trust that our negotiating committee will return with the best possible compromise. Many of us will be most displeased with the terms, but I have no doubt that our experienced negotiators will have arrived at a solution supplying the Company with the support they require while providing the least impact to the membership. Then again, as you mentioned, if not happy you do have other options….