Jetsgo to Fly Agaian?

[Guest rattler]

Rattler, are those not the J-class cabin numbers your are quoting there ??

International "Y"

Aircraft

No. of Seats places

Seating Configuration

Seat Pitch

Seat Width

A330        228  2x4x2  31"-34"    17.2"

A340-300  252 2x4x2    32"-34"  17.2"

A340-500  225 2x4x2    31"-34"  17.2"

B767-300ER 159 or 175 or

179 or 187

                      2x3x2 32"-34" 17"

Hospitality Service- North America

Aircraft Specifications*

Aircraft

No. of Seats places

Seating Configuration

Seat Pitch

Seat Width

B767-200 162 2x3x2 31"-32" 17"

B767-300 185 or 188 2x3x2 31"-32" 17"

A321        142 3x3 32" 17"

A320        120 3x3 31"-32" 17"

A319        106 3x3 31"-32" 17"

CL-65        50 2x2 31" 17"

As you can see, seat pitch is basically the same on all aircraft including the RJ. Seat style is a bit of a different issue though.

SJSA, As for the definition of LCC, other than what is termed the "legacy" carrier, what else is there ??  Charter ?? That seems to be passe. I would say Zoom is an international version of LCC, also Thomas Cook, and Thompson (UK) would probably fall into that category as well wouldn't they ??

quite right, the seat width etc is for (cattle class) but the recline does not belong in the chart. I have amended my original post. Still curious re the Width on Westjet...

[sjsa]

SJSA, As for the definition of LCC, other than what is termed the "legacy" carrier, what else is there ?? Charter ?? That seems to be passe. I would say Zoom is an international version of LCC, also Thomas Cook, and Thompson (UK) would probably fall into that category as well wouldn't they ??

Sure, that's fair. I guess they are an LCC in the broad sense.

As for WestJet seats, the pitch is generous but the width is narrow, on line with Transat I would say. Frankly I'm not sure how some of widebodys manage for 4 hours ( I ain't no RJ myself).

I tend to agree with Dropzone, the widebody is less oppresive on long haul (I can handle the 737 for about 6 max in the back). However long haul to Asia is just plain misery on any aircraft unless you can pony up for business or first class (in which case Singapore would definatly be the airline of choise or Emerites elsewhere).

[Arctic Ace]

Meals that cost $2-$4 to prepare are not where LCC's save the bulk of their money.

The term LCC, atleast in terms of fares seems to be obsolete as all airlines, atleast as far as economy service goes, no matter what their legacy or "LCC" credentials offer an inflight product that is for all practical purposes the same.

Personally, the only difference between AC and WJ to me is that AC has Aeroplan whereas I have something like a grand total of 14 Airmiles. Plus, AC has this really good Pasta and Asparagus salad I get on my flights to Toronto from time to time.

Another difference. WestJet is Canadian owned.

[Guest rattler]

Seems that both AC and Westjet have around the same "non Canadian ownership". Both are under 25%

Canadian Transportation Agency Releases Detailed Reasons for its Decision about Air Canada's Ownership and Control

OTTAWA, Sept. 29 /CNW Telbec/ - The Canadian Transportation Agency today

provided detailed reasons for its decision in which it concluded that Air

Canada's proposed new corporate structure will meet the Canadian ownership and

control requirements as defined in the Canada Transportation Act.

As stated on September 3, 2004, the Agency is satisfied, after a careful

and comprehensive examination of all information and documentation filed in

respect of the proposed new corporate structure of Air Canada, that the new

entity, ACE Aviation Holdings, and its subsidiary air carriers will meet the

Canadian ownership and control requirements as defined in subsection 55(1) of

the Canada Transportation Act upon emergence from the Companies' Creditors

Arrangement Act proceedings, anticipated for September 30, 2004.

The Agency, in its Decision No. 511-A-2004, concluded that non-Canadian

shareholders will never own and control more than 25 per cent of the voting

interests in ACE. The decision states: "(Although) the proposed share

structure of ACE is different than the traditional share structures examined

by the Agency in the past, (...) ACE has put into place a mechanism that

provides an automatic adjustment of the voting right attached to each voting

share held by non-Canadians (...) (that) does not depart from the spirit of

the Canada Transportation Act."

CALGARY, ALBERTA--(CCNMatthews - Jan. 12, 2005) - WestJet (TSX:WJA)

advises that at the close of trading on January 12, 2005, the

non-Canadian ownership level of its common shares was 24.1%. This

represents an increase of 2,821,789 shares or a net 2.2 percentage-point

increase in non-Canadian ownership of WestJet common shares since July

22, 2004, the last time WestJet reported non-Canadian ownership levels.

Under Canadian law, non-Canadian ownership of airline voting shares is

limited to 25% of outstanding shares. WestJet has established special

operating procedures for non-Canadian transfers and monitoring of the

non-Canadian ownership levels of its voting shares.

[Arctic Ace]

Seems that both AC and Westjet have around the same "non Canadian ownership". Both are under 25%

http://new.stockwatch.com/swnet/newsit/new...Inc&title=Globe

I believe Air Canada was in excess of 80% foreign owned on exit from CCAA and is probably still close to that level.

"The Agency, in its Decision No. 511-A-2004, concluded that non-Canadian

shareholders will never own and control more than 25 per cent of the voting

interests in ACE. The decision states: "(Although) the proposed share

structure of ACE is different than the traditional share structures examined

by the Agency in the past, (...) ACE has put into place a mechanism that

provides an automatic adjustment of the voting right attached to each voting

share held by non-Canadians (...) (that) does not depart from the spirit of

the Canada Transportation Act."

Foreign limits are based on voting shares only. I know any corporations I've owned stock in have not offered a vote on operational matters or any matters that one could say were in any way "controlling". The "spirit of the Canada Transportation Act" is to provide a mechanism that will ensure control of the airline remains with Canadians. I don't buy into the belief that limiting voting power of foreign shareholders will accomplish this. If I were running a company and the people who had the most money invested in the company said they wanted things done a certain way I would be inclined to listen. This is especially true in the case of Ace where individual foreign companies own significantly large blocks of shares. The people with the money control the airline, not the minority with the voting power. Who decides what is to be voted on?

I've had this "discussion" with Dagger a while back and challenged forum members to give an example of another Canadian company that had a "variable voting share" structure in place. The example of Petrocan was offered and I conceded. However one must realize Petrocan was another government owned entity that could have led to political embarassment if a satisfactory financial restructuring was not achieved.

I stand by my statement that Air Canada is foreign owned and for all intensive purposes foreign controlled. The ownership levels may pass the government adjusted "transportation act" but like all government decisions is designed to benefit the politicians rather than the industry, Canadian public, or individual corporations.

[dagger]

Then perhaps you should say, IMHO Air Canada is foreign owned. The facts say otherwise.

[dagger]

Then perhaps you should say, IMHO Air Canada is foreign owned. The facts say otherwise.

[Arctic Ace]

Then perhaps you should say, IMHO Air Canada is foreign owned. The facts say otherwise.

This is just like fishing. No need to bite twice.

Now, what facts? Are you saying the majority of all Air Canada shares are held by Canadians? I believe the facts are as I stated.

[Guest rattler]

Artic Ace: There are others: eg.

Transat A.T. Inc. amends its capital structure following shareholder approval of the Creation of Two Classes of Common Shares

Montreal, Qc, Canada, February 24, 2005 -

Move allows the Company to ensure compliance with foreign ownership rules while maintaining its liquidity

Transat A.T. Inc filed its Articles of Amendment today with the federal authorities, as required under the Canada Business Corporations Act. In so doing, Transat initiated the process that will result in the creation of two new classes of shares replacing its common shares, as described in the draft Articles of Amendment approved by the Company’s shareholders at a special meeting held today. The amendment will be confirmed once authorities issue a Certificate of Amendment, which is expected to come into force on March 4. The amended capital structure will allow Transat to comply with the Canada Transportation Act, which places a 25% maximum on the number of voting rights attached to shares that may be held by non-Canadians.

The main effects of the amendments to Transat’s Articles include:

- authorizing Transat to issue an unlimited number of Class A Variable Voting Shares and Class B Voting Shares;

- converting each issued and outstanding common share which is owned or controlled by a non-Canadian within the meaning of the Canada Transportation Act into one Class A Variable Voting Share;

- converting each issued and outstanding common share which is owned and controlled by a Canadian within the meaning of the Canada Transportation Act into one Class B Voting Share.

After the initial conversion, shares purchased by non-Canadians will automatically be converted into Class A Variable Voting Shares, and shares purchased by Canadians will automatically be converted into Class B Voting Shares, as necessary.

Class A Variable Voting Shares, held by non-Canadians, carry one vote per share, unless the total number of Class A Variable Voting Shares exceeds 25% of all outstanding voting shares, or 25% of the votes cast, in which case the votes attached to each share will be decreased so that all Class A Variable Voting Shares as a class will never represent more than 25% of the total number of votes. Class B Voting Shares, held by Canadians, carry one vote per share. All other privileges attaching to the shares will remain unchanged.

Transat holds 100% of air carrier Air Transat Inc., and as such must comply with the Canada Transportation Act requirement that all air carriers or the owners thereof be Canadian, namely that no more than 25% of the voting rights attaching to its shares be owned or controlled by non-Canadians.

MEDISYS HEALTH GROUP INC.

$10,000,002

Up to 3,333,334 Subordinate Voting Shares

This offering (the ‘‘Offering’’) is an initial public offering of up to 3,333,334 Subordinate Voting Shares (the ‘‘Subordinate Voting

Shares’’) of Medisys Health Group Inc. (‘‘Medisys’’ or the ‘‘Company’’), to be issued from treasury. See ‘‘Plan of Distribution’’.

At the closing of this Offering, the Company will have two classes of equity shares: Subordinate Voting Shares and Multiple Voting

Shares (collectively, the ‘‘Equity Shares’’). The Equity Shares will be identical in all respects except that the Subordinate Voting

Shares will carry one vote per share, whereas the Multiple Voting Shares will carry six votes per share and will be convertible at

any time into Subordinate Voting Shares on a one-for-one basis, as further described under ‘‘Description of Share Capital’’. The

holders of Subordinate Voting Shares will benefit from protective provisions that giv

[Arctic Ace]

Artic Ace: There are others: eg.

Transat A.T. Inc. amends its capital structure following shareholder approval of the Creation of Two Classes of Common Shares

There are now. The feds couldn't allow Air Canada to take advantage of the concept without allowing others to as well. The point I am making is that Air Canada is foreign owned and as Dagger would prefer me to say IMHO foreign controlled. I guess that leaves WestJet as Canada's largest airline.

[Guest rattler]

I will not get between you and Dagger but I do tend to agree with him in this case.... However....

I thought you might also be interested in the following which to me is more troubling than who owns / controls AC,,,, always assuming that foreign ownership is a threat rather than a blessing.

Percentage of operating revenues of Canadian industries that were from foreign-controlled companies in 2002:

Manufacturing - 51.8%

Oil and gas - 49.9%

Finance and insurance - 23.7%

[Arctic Ace]

I will not get between you and Dagger but I do tend to agree with him in this case.... However.... 

I thought you might also be interested in the following which to me is more troubling than who owns / controls AC,,,, always assuming that foreign ownership is a threat rather than a blessing. 

Percentage of operating revenues of Canadian industries that were from foreign-controlled companies in 2002:

Manufacturing - 51.8%

Oil and gas - 49.9%

Finance and insurance - 23.7%

Good plan. We can't be responsible for any collateral damage.

Seems like we're selling out. How about real estate. That 200 grand house appreciation might have a lead lining.