thoughts?

[Guest AME]

http://www.flyourflag.ca/

[Kip Powick]

Somebody has too much time on their hands... The individual who started this survey must be one disfuntional individual.

It is a given that the Canadian flag will be flown over the "Hill".

The fact that PM flew a different countries flag on his ships is not a factor. Had any of us been in his shoes we would have done the same thing. The fact that the GST is around is a promise that Jean broke, and he has admitted it.

The originator of the linked website must be one bitter individual...he/she should get on with life.

[Southshore]

Sorry I didn't hear an answer in your response. I'm not thinking one way or the other about Martin yet buuuut I'm getting an uneasy feeling about the 'flag of convenience' thing. You don't get to say "I have an ethics issue about 'your behaviour' but I don't have an issue with mine". The record of CSL is in the public record. CSL uses offshore flags to avoid Canadian taxes and modern standards. Its employment record has made the news as well. It stinks of "well, this is business". If Martin says that his sons are running the company and he doesn't have a say just tells me he didn't raise his sons with any sense of responsibility. And, for what it's worth, he just transfered the company to his sons this year. Pitiful, Jethro, just pitiful.

You seem to be smart enough of a guy to understand the websites ironic use of the phrase "fly the flag".

[Guest GDR]

Hi Kip

Hope you're enjoying retirement. I'll soon be joining you.

I think there's more to it than that. Paul Martin had more than just insider knowledge about which countries would be tax exempt. He was the person primarily responsible for the decision of how the rules would change when he was finance minister.

Most countries including the one where his ships were registered were no longer going to be tax exempt. One exception to the rule was BDA. The day the rules changed he moved the registered home base of his ships to Bermuda from where he had them registered previously. He was the one responsible for leaving that loop hole,(BDA) in there.

It certainly appears to me that he used his position to benefit himself financially. Aside from this, it makes him no better than Irving who made a fortune from his business in Canada and then moved all his assets off shore leaving the guy working at 10 bucks an hour to pay for the highways that oil trucks moved his oil and gas around.

At least this is how I understand things and hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong. (As if there was any doubt about that. )

[wrench]

POLITICS! Hey, southshore, someone elected this guy. Maybe it wasn't you but I can say for sure that it was more than a couple of people that voted for him. I don't think I have ever seen a politician that has kept a promise or a politician that has not manipulated his/her way into office...It's a "feel important, save the world" type that gravitates to this kind of career. What ever you or I think about this person WE ARE STUCK with him (for now). Who would be better? They are all the same.

[Kip Powick]

((((Sorry I didn't hear an answer in your response))))

What was the question ??? AME simply asked “any thoughts?”. And I gave mine.

In a nutshell, he, (PM), did what anyone else would have done in his position. Did he use “inside knowledge” to do what he did re his ship’s registration?? Probably, but be realistic, do you think he is going to change anything to appease the small minority who care?? Not bloody likely so why would anyone get wrapped around the axle about it. Surely to God there are bigger issues that face the Nation than some politician who created/found a loophole. The fact that it benefited him is certainly questionable but it is not a big issue as far as the average Canadian citizen is concerned….really….does it effect your standard of living?? I think not.

(((The record of CSL is in the public record. CSL uses offshore flags to avoid Canadian taxes and modern standards)))

So what?? Most shipping companies register in a “free of taxes” country. As he is the Prime Minister in waiting, perhaps those that object to the loophole he created can start a petition to have it changed and, after the coronation, present PM with said petition. Sorry, but I have bigger things on my plate

((((If Martin says that his sons are running the company and he doesn't have a say just tells me he didn't raise his sons with any sense of responsibility.))))

Sorry, don’t follow your train of thought. Are you implying that the son’s should now register the ships in Canada, (show some responsibility), to show that they are indeed “true Canadians??

(((You seem to be smart enough of a guy to understand the websites ironic use of the phrase "fly the flag". )))

Why thank you…..but personally I don’t give a rat’s butt about the entire issue….but AME did ask for thoughts and you have just read the last of mine

[Southshore]

You said "personally I don’t give a rat’s butt about the entire issue".

Your kids are grown and you don't have a care about the environment or the job your son in law might have or who your grandchild will work for or, or, or. This is the most shortsighted posting you have ever provided. With age, experience and wisdom are supposed to coincide. I'm not trying to twist your nipple here but I don't see how you not giving a "rats butt" is going to help anyone anywhere. Off shore regitration is an end run. Everybody knows that. Stopping it is the answer to a whack of polution and exploitation. Pilots have spent eons trying to stop their own. You should have been a part of that struggle. You are retired so now you don't care? What up wi' dat?

He's going to be the PM - so where are the standards supposed to bottom out?

[Kip Powick]

I said I wasn’t going to get into this but I’m afraid part of your “rebuttal” makes no sense to me soooooo……

((((Off shore regitration is an end run.))))

Agreed re “end run” but you would do it if you were in charge of a multimillion dollar company and could save millions by registering off shore. Geeeeze..there is a poster above who wants to open an offshore account…bug him about not paying taxes.

(Stopping it is the answer to a whack of polution and exploitation.)

What is the basis for this line? Do you actually believe that if the ships fly the Canadian flag, (register in Canada), they are less apt to pollute ?? How do you come to that conclusion? Do you have data to support that statement? Polluters are only caught by direct reporting/sighting and I’m sure the government doesn’t have a different “you gotta pay this amount” for foreign registered ships vs. Canadian registered ships. Perhaps your point is that if the ship is registered in Canada and pollutes it would be easier for the Govt to receive the fine, or at least be able to impound the ship..that may be true, I don’t know but you have not substantiated your statement.

((( Pilots have spent eons trying to stop their own. You should have been a part of that struggle. You are retired so now you don't care? What up wi' dat?)))

Lost me here…what have we, (pilots), spent eons trying to stop???? Pollution?? Certainly I am dead set against pollution, in fact I just purchased a little gizmo that one puts over their “overflow” vents on a boat when fueling so that any overflow does not go into the waterways, that I love and frequent. I am also carrying flyers that I hand out recommending this gizmo….and no there is nothing in it for me, I just don’t want pollution…..but I’m not sure what we as pilots have done, AND……. prove to me that registering a ship in another country makes it exempt from Canadian anti-pollution laws within our territorial waters.

An excerpt form Jack Laytons website…….”because flying another country's flag helped him avoid Canadian taxes, Canadian wages and Canadian environmental standards.

Let’s give PM the tax issue, I would do the same, but NOWHERE does Jack Layton substantiate the other two claims re wages and environment have anything to do with registering a ship. This is pure political posturing with no substance, mere rhetoric. If you are going to accuse someone of failing to meet “your” criteria you must be able to produce plausible evidence.…… Jack Layton is merely posturing, as is his right.

The fact that I am retired has nothing to do with how I feel about the NDP-Layton, sponsored website that is, IMHO, a bit of a witch hunt.

[Guest Dockjock]

The website is run by the NDP...just in case you didn't see the big picture of Jack Layton! Duh!

[Guest QRC]

What you are saying Kip is that Paul Martin was entitled to act "legally" and he has done nothing wrong. In fact he has acted responsibly to CSL's shareholders in his role as President and CEO. These facts are not in dispute.

You responded to Southshores's post... "Agreed re “end run” but you would do it if you were in charge of a multimillion dollar company and could save millions by registering off shore. Geeeeze..there is a poster above who wants to open an offshore account…bug him about not paying taxes."

Well this is the point isn't it. Paul Martin while being the Finance Minister and making every effort to make you and I pay our taxes is "end running" the very policy he's endorsing.

February 22, 1994 - In his first budget, Martin says, "Certain corporations are not paying an appropriate level of tax. Accordingly, we are taking measures to prevent companies from using foreign affiliates to avoid paying taxes which are otherwise due." In his budget implementation, Martin made it difficult for Liberia to qualify as a tax haven, but thanks to a loophole in the law, the Barbados still counted. Within a year, CSL International had moved its registered office from Liberia to the Barbados.

You responded to Southshore's post "Do you actually believe that if the ships fly the Canadian flag, (register in Canada), they are less apt to pollute ?? How do you come to that conclusion? Do you have data to support that statement?"

"despite accounting for only 20% of the world's shipping fleet, ships with flags of convenience on them account for 44% of the world's maritime shipping losses."

Having done Maritime patrols myself I can tell you that it is commonly known in the Maritime community that all countries do not have and some willfully neglect to enforce international maritime law regarding pollution and exploitation of marine resources. Recent examples have been played out in the media frequently on the east coast of Canada in particular with foreign ships being seized and/or being asked to leave our waters. This is not to say that the laws are not being broken by Canadian registered ships, but at least there is some enforcement enabled against violators in Canadian and US waters (EEZ-Economic Exclusion Zones)...unlike other parts of the world. Flying other countries flags on your ships do not exempt you from international law, but does the fact that CSL used other countries to escape paying Canadian taxes that help enforce Canadian maritime law make them morally accountable?

You said "This is pure political posturing with no substance". I agree with the political posturing but I believe it does have substance. The pilot that was wondering above about opening an offshore account is not running for Prime Minister and if he owned an airline company in Canada that had Bahamian registered aircraft with Liberian pilots flying to points within Canada and abroad simply to avoid paying the our taxes we as pilots may look at things differently.

Martin is no dummy, he has done things in business and in his public life that have made him very successful. He wears two hats and has managed to juggle responsibilities. It's just how he's gone about the task that makes me concerned.

IMHO

QRC