For NEO...re kids

[Kip Powick]

This “debate” could go on forever. Here is an actual case. My brother-in-law has one child, who is now 23. When he was about 5 or so he was walking with his parents in YOW during the tulip festival and decided to walk in the flowers and “trash” them. Both his parents are teachers and “Mommy” believes every little soul should be treated like a real grown-up so she just walked beside him, (not in the flower bed), and asked him to please “stop”. The kid did not stop, he trashed about 100 feet of tulips and when he came to the end of the row and decided that was enough for the day, “Mommy “ praised him for being a “good boy and not hurting the flowers anymore”..

If had been my kid, he would have been told twice..the third time he would be “yanked” out of the bed and probably given a large “swat” on the hind end. But as I said, this debate can go on forever and there will be no resolution…we do what we think is right and hope for the best outcome. Some of us are lucky…our way worked.

Oh the kid???? “Mommy” really felt he was a “little person”, not a child so there was no real direction, he could do pretty much whatever he wanted. He failed Grade 12 twice, went to University, quit, went back 2 years later, quit…tried to take a college course in bartending…quit…. Did telephone solicitations for a Natural Gas company…quit. Unemployed now and living with some girl, but not on Welfare cause “Mommy” is still footing the bill, even though she retired 3 years ago. I say “Mommy” because that’s the way it is. “Daddy” got fed up, won’t say anything, and just lets things go on and on and on.

Not in my family…no way…. And as I said what worked for our kids may not work for others.

[Southshore]

Sorry but for every "I gave my kid a swat and he turned out some good" story there is a example where the damaged kids are as disfunctional and unmanagable (and turn out equally bad parents) as you'd imagine. I'm glad your kids turned out well but I imagine there was more of your example than your discipline at work. The problem is that there is no bar by which good parents can measure their discipline. A smack in one instance ends up a punch or beating by another measure.

I will give one "anecdotal" instance. My daughter was misbehaving mildly and I went to give her a little "boost" on her diaper. Not a spank or a smack but just kind of a lift on her bottom. I missed the diaper and caught her square on the small of her back. It stung her. But I'm the one blinking back the tears right now. That was 14 years ago. I hate the thought of that moment and I will forever. I really didn't need to do that. It was more for me than her. I've told her this story and she doesn't remember it.

[Kip Powick]

(((The problem is that there is no bar by which good parents can measure their discipline. )))

Agree whole heartedly......what works for some does not work for others..........and another good debate would be....

Are kids better behaved now or were they better behaved in years gone by???

[Guest neo]

I think it's a debate that should go on as long as people are parenting: broadly speaking, what's the best way to raise kids? Because like in so many other endeavors, it's when people stop thinking about what they're doing and simply act out of instinct or habit or ideology that we miss opportunities to do things a better way.

In the example you provided, parental discipline is lacking. But it's not lacking because the parent didn't physically punish the child for misbehavior, but because the parent didn't stop the child from destroying property that wasn't his.

And I put the same issue I mentioned elsewhere to you again in this instance. Who is the most culpable individual in this example? Is it the five year old child who willfully destroyed the tulips? Or is it the grown adult who permitted the child to misbehave in this way? I don't have any difficulty assigning the responsibility here: it's the parent's. But did the parent get physically punished? Would the parent, in any conceivable scenario flowing from this event, be properly given physical punishment? The obvious answer is, no.

Then how is it, that even though the responsible individual, a grown adult with full social, intellectual and moral capacity, is subject to no physical punishment whatsoever; but that child, little more than a toddler, should properly be subject to physical retribution?

On a more general note I ask those of you reading, is the world so lacking in violence, in physical retribution, that we feel it necessary to make up for it in our homes? Will your children go out into a world so full of love that any physical punishment you hand out at home will seem irrelevant? Or is the world at large well capable of delivering, in the fullest measure, the message that you can get people to do what you want by physically hurting them?

Children are taught, some at a very early age, that it's acceptable to physically hurt someone to get them to do what you want. Is it possibled that the violence that you see in the world at large is in some way connected to the physical punishment children are subjected to in their homes? That's not a question I can answer, but I know that I won't contribute to the possibility.

Best wishes Kip,

neo

[Southshore]

the level of crime of all types has gone down. The problem is that there is more to measure and, by the level of reportage, more people and more methods by which you will be told of the crime. I don't believe for one moment that there was less abuse of children in the past. There was simply less awareness. My mother told us of kids in our neighbourhood who used to come to our house because it was known as a 'good' place to come when "things where going on". They knew, the cops knew (but this was a 'domestic' so they didn't want to interfere).

We just know more now. It was always there. We were just embarrassed, ashamed or too ignorant to do anything about it. This is a positive side to the 'new age' - we can help now.

There are lots out there who know what I'm talking about. I'm sorry you were alone when you needed somebody. You would have liked my mother.

[Guest neo]

A few years ago I felt I had to write a letter to a friend's mother. I'd spent quite some time reflecting on my adolescence, and realized how much having my friend's home as a sanctuary meant to me in those days. I don't want to overly dramatize it, because compared to what some kids go through, I lived in a paradise. Nevertheless, my friend's mom made a huge difference in my life by giving me a place to go if I needed to get away.

So for her, and all the parents out there that open their doors to other family's kids... thanks a lot.

neo

[Guest Virtual]

One of the most important things a (loving) parent can do for their child is to teach their kids to be accountable for the things they say and do. They need to learn that their behaviour and/or misbehaviour not only affects them, but those around them. Many parents bypass teaching this 'accountability - often excusing their child's behaviour or blaming someone or something else. It's never THEIR child's fault. The result is too much 'it's all about me and the *%&~ with everyone else' or waiting for the world to be laid at their feet.

Now, how to teach that accountability is the next big question!

[SimBoy]

I am the first one to agree that NO child should be " beaten " nor in any other way have pain inflicted upon them out of a parent's spite or frustration. I am neither married, nor do I have children, but was a child once, like most others on here.

It just makes me upset when I hear bleeding-heart-types make black and white rules about not doing this, or not doing that. In most cases, their focus is so narrow that that cannot see the peripheral results that narrow actions can cause.

While I was not ever beaten nor abused as a child, I grew up in the '60's as the eldest of four boys. Yeah, we got the odd swat from Mom or Dad, and now I look back and thank them for using a means of communication with me that I hadn't, for want of a better means, developed nor honed at that point. Spankings were never " immediate " nor were they done out of anger. Mom and Dad would always take the time to explain what was about to happen AND WHY. Looking back, the psychological punishment that THAT involved was much more memorable and effective than any token spanking I ever received. I learned.

Pain compliance is an accepted technique for any law enforcement officer for use on an adult, as a last resort, when reasoning cannot be achieved. On a much different scale, parenting, as my mother related to me, is very similar.

If a child does not know what reason is, how can one expect them to be reasonable. It is an acquired thing that comes with the years, provided that the history is loving and thoughtful.

A smack on the bum or a tap on the hand? Come on! How else do you make it clear to a child that it is not in their best interest to disobey or play in the street? They do not know the real life severe consequences that the wisdom of years teaches elders, so we use whatever method works best. The Bible talks of physical chastisement, but it, too, must be taken in context and not to extremes.

Should we beat our children? NO! NO! NO!

Should we offer a bit of pain compliance to a young mind that only knows pleasure and pain? Well, it worked for me and for many more of my time.

I thank Mom and Dad for the odd time I needed a slap on the bum or a tap on the hand. They did no more than make something clear to me, as a child, that I was otherwise incapable of conceiving at that point in my development. They kept me safe!

Think about it... action and consequence, or action and reasoning. I've never been able to reason with a 4 year old. Have you?

We all need a sense of discipline. A parent's job is simply to instill that concept in their children, and nature will thereafter take care of itself.

I could go on about teaching spelling and grammar in schools these days, but I shall not.

(Gawd, I'm becoming old!)

A loving slap on the bum is better than ignoring an opportunity to make a child better who doesn't otherwise understand.

[Guest neo]

Good point, Virtual.

For a start, parents have to show accountability themselves. For instance, in the example Kip provided, the parents showed no accountability in their own behavior. Why would the child grow up any different? If the parents show accountability and a willingness to accept responsibility, the children will learn it. Where additional persuasion is needed, ensure that a consequence (but not a punishment) arises of a level and nature that is commensurate with the transgression.

Here's an observation. Sit down with your child beforehand and have a friendly discussion about some particular behavior that you wish to encourage, say, certain grades in school. If you then ask the child what would be an appropriate consequence if the standard isn't met, as long as you haven't set the bar unreasonably high, you will be surprised at how stern kids are willing to be with themselves. The consequence they suggest will often be more severe than what you had contemplated yourself!

If kids are able to participate in their own discipline and guidance, they will usually show a lot of willingness to co-operate. If the discipline is simply imposed and backed up with physical enforcement, they will typically rebel. That's just human nature, and kids are human beings in the raw. Fight it or work with it... it's the parents choice.

neo

[Guest neo]

"A loving slap on the bum is better than ignoring an opportunity to make a child better who doesn't otherwise understand."

But better still is a parent who understands that the child will make HIMSELF better, given the right environment. You can enforce, like the cop in your example. Or you can encourage and nurture, as I would suggest.

Maybe minor physical punishment IS better than no discipline at all. But that's a far cry from showing that it's the BEST way to raise kids.

[Guest Virtual]

Agreed. The end result is hoping your child is able to make good decisions .... even when no one else is around to notice. Then they have gained their own self-respect and will have earned the respect of others. (Hm. Maybe Kip's parents had it right!)

From personal experience, ours have made a few mistakes - but taking responsibility for their actions have made them stronger, well-liked and given them a high 'emotional' IQ. I'm sure we're in for a few more 'bumps' but I'm hoping that we're all on the right track.