MURRAY Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 JayDee: I understand that the operation of an A320 is an expensive one. That‘s why I shake my head any time an A320 in VMC is cleared for a visual, told he’s number one, and still drags it out to twelve miles to intercept the glide slope from below. Not to mention the royal reaming he is imposing on any and all following traffic. While on the subject of visual approaches, I must admit that I find the whole ordeal of sequencing 320’s behind traffic for visuals wildly entertaining. The sequence of events is usually something like this: 1) Wait for aircraft to descend (and you will wait, regardless of any information you have provided the crew re. sequence, distance to base leg, etc.). 2) Turn aircraft onto base leg. Wait again. Wait some more. Aircraft commences turn. 3) Turn aircraft onto final, three (sometimes less, a la LGA, which as we all know, you love.) miles behind preceding traffic. 4) Ask an average of 14 times if aircraft has traffic at 12 o’clock, 3 miles in sight (Although, I’m sure they can smell him by this point.). Wait for response. Wait some more. 5) Clear aircraft for visual approach. Or, deal with a brilliant comment like, “We are an IFR equipped, aircraft, you know.” Assign airspeed. 6) Listen to the pilots’ voice go up an octave as he incessantly requests to reduce speed, hoping for 4 miles in trail spacing with traffic. Why? Because he knows the preceding A320 will take 60+ (80+ for heavies) seconds to clear the runway. Sad, but true. Curiously, more prevalent within a specific pilot group. I recall an exchange I had with a pilot who said he would not use brakes to exit the runway if the subsequent lander was at the FAF. It was his belief that Canadian rules would not permit a departure in between himself and the lander at the FAF. A bad, ill-advised, ultimately costly assumption, truly one borne of ignorance. Pathetically, a self-imposed ignorance, as the average flight crew has no inclination to educate themselves. I am always interested as to why many A320 crews still refuse runway changes to their preferred runway on initial contact with arrival, regardless of meteorological conditions. A YYZ thing, I guess. Oh well…Enjoy your drive. You might like to know that there was a committee in place whose assignment was to redesign both airspace and procedures for YYZ Terminal. Included were familiarization trips to both LAX and ATL. The airline dominated Board of Directors decided that the funds were not available for such an extravagance and shelved the whole works. What do think of your decision now? By the way, there is no evidence that a resurrection of the committee is forthcoming. On the subject of the FAA, some of the most sobering insights into the YYZ operation came from the U.S. controllers who worked here for a number of years, several of whom originally worked at ORD and LAX. Interestingly enough, few of the criticisms centered on procedural issues. The majority revolved around the operating practices and general attitudes of many flight crews. “Inattentive”, “Apathetic”, “Lackadaisical”. Well, you get the picture. You demand U.S. style service, but when you are afforded it you are unwilling to do your part to make it work. Why else would one of your RJ pilots, on final for 33L, gleefully announce: “Hey arrival! Who’s that guy I see on TCAS at 12 o’clock, 2 and a half miles ahead?” Well, Captain Pinhead, I would respectfully submit that the target would be the traffic you are following. Honestly though, would you ask a question like that in the States? I sincerely doubt it. I guess we just have a higher tolerance for smart-assed losers asking stupid questions up here in Canada. The R/T around YYZ is, generally, a joke. There’s nothing more fun than trying to work arrival with 10 self-centered, unmotivated aircrews, whose professional opinion convinces them that it isn’t busy, yet don’t have the courtesy to listen for a break on the frequency before checking on. This, of course, results in crews tromping all over each other’s transmissions, a by-product of the “me first” mentality. Seriously, anybody who believes they are providing a service by chanting out “BLOCKED” anytime this occurs is sadly mistaken. The loud squeal in my ear being generated by two or more crews with brutal R/T technique is quite sufficient. Later on, however, you must repeat clearances two and three times before earning the right to a readback. You seem to have missed the idea that the efficient operation of any facility is a shared responsibility. Why do you suppose HIRO at EGLL was an airline initiative? You also conveniently forget that your company has a lot of &%$@! off employees. The sad fact is that they’re flying like it. And that’s definitely costing your company millions. Furthermore, you might like to go back and reread your thoughts on marshalling. I would love to go to LAX or ATL and observe their respective systems. Real systems, as you put it. I think flight crews should be required to observe real systems, too. Any system, for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HPT-TOUR Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Only Jazz does ATL now and your welcome anytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buskipper Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Murray, I'll ignore your attitude and just try to comment on your visual approach scenerio. Usually in the States, we are told as we join downwind "expect a visual approach". Quite often the approach clearance comes early and it is up to the flight crews to get the aircraft down and dirty and established on the profile. The traffic information is provided early, on the downwind. In Toronto, we are rarely advised of whether it will be visual or IFR, 4 miles or 15 miles for the final turn. I have often thrown out the speed brakes and gotten down early, hoping for a visual, only to be told something like "your traffic is a Dash 8, 10 miles final." As well, the traffic information is often given in the base turn which can be confusing (ie 10 o'clock before the turn, in the turn or after we roll out?) and is also a busy time for Airbus crews. Give us the information early so we can plan for a visual -its not a DC9 or 737. As for the time we spend on the runway prior to exiting, I would assume that this has already been brought up to our management has it not? Maybe it the Flap 3 landings that some guys are doing even during HIRO. Personally, I think there has been some big improvements during the last 10 years or so but please don't compare yourselves with LGA or ORD. ORD is awesome. They often have six active runways - all of them! Hope your feeling better after venting like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Here's one for ya......the other weekend......ATC were using a single runway operation ( 23 )(weather impecable ) with next to zip on winds....I think we were number 16 in line up.....total taxi time was 37 minutes from push to departure..Taxi fuel was used up long before I ever got near the runway,( memories of a few years back come to mind when this was std procedure ).. considering the YYZ airport now has 10 runway possibilities as options.....I don't care what excuse can be thought of to defend such practices...there is just no place for such inefficiencies in 2003. As a comparison.....in ORD...the busiest airport on the ground I have ever seen..One taxi clearance is all thats required, sometimes you don't even stop rolling before T/O ....3 weeks ago I was airborne 9 minutes after push.....after landing clearance is....."taxi to the gate via a,b c,d"...subject closed...where as in YYZ....first lets give them an " Oshawa One " arrival,lemme chk,,,he's going to gate 244 so lets land him on 23 the most inconvenient, farthest runway from his gate possible, then taxi him for two miles, contact 121.65....contact 121.9....and OMG sometimes you even have a THIRD frequency in use, then contact ramp 122.07...and for craps sake...don't ever change frequencies without informing you, or your life is mud ! FYI..It is my firm hope the problems lie in red tape / unions / supervisor's / MOT rules etc and not the individual people actually doing the job. My comments were and are directed at the "system"...not the controller's. I realize you have your hands tied behind your back most days, but that doesn't make it right or efficient. Whether you or I agree or not, one fact remains... after flying around the world for a lot longer than I will admit to, this only happens in YYZ....The system in YYZ stinks of duplicity, red tape and ass covering. Don't shoot the messenger !!...just get my passengers from & to the gate as expeditiously as possible pls ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 And you probably wonder why pilots get " jaded".....Here's one for ya......the other weekend......ATC were using a single runway operation ( 23 )(weather impecable ) with next to zip on winds....I think we were number 16 in line up.....total taxi time was 37 minutes from push to departure..Taxi fuel was used up long before I ever got near the runway,( memories of a few years back come to mind when this was std procedure ).. considering the YYZ airport now has 10 runway possibilities as options.....I don't care what excuse can be thought of to defend such practices...there is just no place for such inefficiencies in 2003. As a comparison.....in ORD...the busiest airport on the ground I have ever seen..One taxi clearance is all thats required, sometimes you don't even stop rolling before T/O ....3 weeks ago I was airborne 9 minutes after push.....after landing clearance is....."taxi to the gate via a,b c,d"...subject closed...where as in YYZ....first lets give them an " Oshawa One " arrival,lemme chk,,,he's going to gate 244 so lets land him on 23 the most inconvenient, farthest runway from his gate possible, then taxi him for two miles, contact 121.65....contact 121.9....and OMG sometimes you even have a THIRD frequency in use, then contact ramp 122.07...and for craps sake...don't ever change frequencies without informing you, or your life is mud ! FYI..It is my firm hope the problems lie in red tape / unions / supervisor's / MOT rules etc and not the individual people actually doing the job. My comments were and are directed at the "system"...not the controller's. I realize you have your hands tied behind your back most days, but that doesn't make it right or efficient. Whether you or I agree or not, one fact remains... after flying around the world for a lot longer than I will admit to, this only happens in YYZ....The system in YYZ stinks of duplicity, red tape and ass covering. Don't shoot the messenger !!...just get my passengers from & to the gate as expeditiously as possible pls ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chiselcharter Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 You did mention weekend, starting Friday afternoon. It seems Monday thru to the weekend controllers (not my word) seem to be falling all over each other. The 'friday start weekends' always seem tobe short staffed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 This is actually a rather informative thread....too bad its a little icey, however I can work with that. My question Murray: Are we speaking of AC A320's or are there other airlines A320's more accomodating to work with? I agree you will have your share of p#$%ed of flightcrew these days but is it an SOP problem that can fix some of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FADEC Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Hey BS, by saying that the bus is not a 73 or a 9 you are saying that you place the airbus in some other category of aircraft. It sounds like you don't have a handle on the aircraft and think that you need special handling by ATC to accomodate your slow reactions or the fact that you don't understand that the airbus CAN be flown like a "normal airplane". Try practising your approaches at an airport that isn't so busy, removing the magic, hand flying, no A/T etc., then you may not get so flustered when someone asks you to fly like everyone else. You sound like a CFIT about to happen. IN MY MOST HUMBLE OPINION DUDE! FADEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buskipper Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Fad, Geez, are you always so grumpy in the morning? Maybe take a couple more hours of nap time before you launch an attack. BTW, just curious but what kind of aircraft do you fly when you're not on the AEF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FADEC Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Skip, 6 yrs on the bus: 330/320, now on the 737. Yup, I can be kinda grumpy in the morn. but wanted to make a point of not letting the MAGIC get in the way of the FLYING. FADEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buskipper Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Fad, Understood and agreed, its a great plane with the bird on and FD's off. However, I have seen a lot of screwed up visual approaches by those new to the airbus. cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FADEC Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 BS, The Airbus lobotomy is painful, at best. Not to mention reading Frenglish from the FCOMS. New guys do scramble as I did and with this in mind and upon re-reading my rather curt post, I apologise if I came across a tad too strong. Also flew out of CYYZ and know the frustrations of both (ATC and FLOPS). Cheers, FADEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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