ACPA/ALPA - Status quo = no winners

[Guest stator]

The real problem that needs to be addresed between ACPA and ALPA is the constant erosion of each others working conditions by each other. Jets for jobs seems to be theme of the day. The ironic thing that I see is that it is our own pilot groups that are lowering the wages and deteriorating the working conditions. When we compete against each other for aircraft we are only hurting ourselves. Even if ACPA keeps all the jets they have payed a dear price for them. If someone believes that if or when ACPA gets all the jet aircraft that ACPA can make up for the losses in future contracts they are mistaken. Remember that in future contract negotiations management will once again play both sides against each other. As long as ALPA and ACPA continue to fight there may be short term victories but do they really justify the detriment to the piloting profession within the AC corporation. The answers will not be easy and there will be pain in both organizations to find a solution. We have to ask ourselves how long we can keep on fighting the war before there is nothing worth fighting for anymore

My two bits worth

[Guest neo]

"The real problem that needs to be addresed between ACPA and ALPA is the constant erosion of each others working conditions by each other."

Correct.

"Even if ACPA keeps all the jets they have payed a dear price for them."

Correct. And ALPA will pay an equally dear price if they get the jets they want.

"Remember that in future contract negotiations management will once again play both sides against each other."

Correct.

"As long as ALPA and ACPA continue to fight there may be short term victories but do they really justify the detriment to the piloting profession within the AC corporation?"

Only a fool would believe that.

"We have to ask ourselves how long we can keep on fighting the war before there is nothing worth fighting for anymore."

Indeed. I would even suggest that the point you're referring to is already here, or passed. But not everyone will feel that way. Those for whom the status quo is best, (and let's be honest, they exist on both sides and are as entitled to their beliefs as anyone) will view change and reconcilliation with suspicion. And of course, those who breathe fire and brimstone over the various issues simply re-inforce those emotions and the status quo that arises from them.

It's not unlike a Death Spiral in aeronautics. Keep pulling back on the stick and you only make matters worse for yourself. Level your wings, on the other hand, and you fly happily away.

neo

[Seeker]

Sure Richard but this always devolves to the same issue, doesn't it? When you cut through the emotion any reasonable person, and that's almost all of us, will agree that some comprimise is needed to put this thing to sleep, but what is that compromise? Bottom of the list just isn't on and when we see how the Canadian guys have been integrated - well, some cynicism is appropriate.

I like your metaphor of the death spiral but I think a better one is a tug-of-war: I may not win by pulling harder but I certainly won't win by easing up. Not unless both sides stop at the same time and I gotta tell you that I just don't trust you ( collectively ).

seeker

[Guest neo]

Hi seeker,

First things first. If you want to talk constructively, then you have to approach the dialogue with the right attitude. Trying to determine what the outcome should be ("...what is that compromise?") before the talks begin, is putting the cart before the horse.

"I like your metaphor of the death spiral but I think a better one is a tug-of-war: I may not win by pulling harder but I certainly won't win by easing up."

OK, I can work with that. A tug-of-war is a two-dimensional, linear conflict, with a simple and clearly defined goal. Our situation does not lend itself to comparisons to that kind of conflict. But if you insist on the metaphor, we need people to stop pulling on the rope in a futile attempt to gain the upper hand.

"Not unless both sides stop at the same time and I gotta tell you that I just don't trust you ( collectively )."

Collectively-speaking, that is the worst possible reason for not discussing matters. Do you trust that a car salesman is going to give you the best deal possible? Or do you instead trust that you can hold your own in a negotiation and protect your own interests? If you don't, then prepare to live a life without negotiation or compromise.

If you don't like the proposals that come out of a discussion, then you reject them. What have you lost?

neo

[Guest neo]

Hi seeker,

First things first. If you want to talk constructively, then you have to approach the dialogue with the right attitude. Trying to determine what the outcome should be["...what is that compromise?" ] before the talks begin, is putting the cart before the horse.

"I like your metaphor of the death spiral but I think a better one is a tug-of-war: I may not win by pulling harder but I certainly won't win by easing up."

OK, I can work with that. A tug-of-war is a two-dimensional, linear conflict, with a simple and clearly defined goal. Our situation does not lend itself to comparisons to that kind of conflict. But if you insist on the metaphor, we need people to stop pulling on the rope in a futile attempt to gain the upper hand.

"Not unless both sides stop at the same time and I gotta tell you that I just don't trust you ( collectively )."

Collectively-speaking, that is the worst possible reason for not discussing matters. Do you trust that a car salesman is going to give you the best deal possible? Or do you instead trust that you can hold your own in a negotiation and protect your own interests? If you don't, then prepare to live a life without negotiation or compromise.

If you don't like the proposals that come out of a discussion, then you reject them. What have you lost?

neo

[Guest stator]

Before any negotiations would be worthwhile it is imperative that both sides of the table recognize and accept the need to come to an equitable solution for the betterment of both pilot groups. The extreme events of the past few months should have convinced the majority that there is a need to address this issue. If ALPA and ACPA members do not recognize this issue as being malignant it will metastasize to the point that there is no recovery for the pilots or the corporation.

[Guest neo]

"Before any negotiations would be worthwhile it is imperative that both sides of the table recognize and accept the need to come to an equitable solution for the betterment of both pilot groups."

Correct, and agreed.

"The extreme events of the past few months should have convinced the majority that there is a need to address this issue."

If the recent barage of 'clue-by-fours' hasn't made this plain to everyone, then nothing ever will.

"If ALPA and ACPA members do not recognize this issue as being malignant it will metastasize to the point that there is no recovery..."

You can warn people, advise them, and even try to heal them, and in the end it's just as you say: if they don't recognize the truth of it themselves, they'll just keep acting in a self-destructive way until there is no further chance of survival.

You don't get to bargain on the outcome until you change the behavior that's gotten you into the situation in the first place. Until you do that, the outcome is a foregone conclusion.

neo

[Seeker]

Hi Richard:

I believe our MEC when they say that they have made repeated atempts to open a dialogue with your MEC. Do you think they are lying, or conversersely, do you believe that your reps have made any efforts to reach our guys?

seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Richard:

I believe our MEC when they say that they have made repeated attempts to open a dialogue with your MEC. Do you think they are lying, or conversersely, do you believe that your reps have made any efforts to reach our guys?

seeker

[Guest neo]

I have no reason to doubt either your representatives or ours on the matter. Do I know the full picture around any of these overtures? No I do not.

But neither do I have to. I simply have to walk past a pilot from the opposite camp, or read what's stated here, or talk to other pilots, and I can see prevailing attitude very well.

Your MEC reps and mine are simply a reflection of our respective rank and files, or at least they should be. Or are you saying that the animosity, the distrust, and even bitter hatred that you read, see and hear just about every day doesn't make it's way into the MEC ranks of either union?

neo

[Seeker]

Well it's clear to me that our reps have made attempts, sincere attempts, recent, sincere attempts to reach Ranier and the boys - to no avail. I believe that they feeI as if they continue to hold the hammer and will persevere. Maybe they will but if so it won't be long before we're back at it, ( as you and others have enunciated so well ). I certainly can't apply any pressure or encouragement to your MEC to actually answer the phone or to make the attitude adjustment needed - perhaps you can.

seeker

[Seeker]

Well it's clear to me that our reps have made attempts, sincere attempts, recent, sincere attempts to reach Ranier and the boys - to no avail. I believe that they feeI that they continue to hold the hammer and will persevere. Maybe they will but if so it won't be long before we're back at it, ( as you and others have enunciated so well ). I certainly can't apply any pressure or encouragement to your MEC to actually answer the phone or to make the attitude adjustment needed - perhaps you can.

seeker

[Guest neo]

Hi seeker,

It's likely that you will hear about our two unions meeting in the near future.

Does ACPA feel it holds the hammer and should remain aloof? If by ACPA you mean the majority of its membership, I doubt it. I suspect that a good number of us recognize that others in this game have hammers too. And while ACPA's may be of good size, even small hammers can do damage.

But it's my hope that the respective memberships recognize that rather than just stopping the damage, the smart move is to build something.

neo