Guest jeanmermoz Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 If for some reason(s) AC has to liquidate, all the parties that have signed or not a TA (because they are part of the CCAA)will follow the fate of AC, is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigol Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 AC dies...JAZZ survives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 The correct answer is that the assets would be sold off piecemeal. Jazz as an entity might be attractive enough to fetch an offer, and hence survive. Aeroplan might be sold off, albeit for a reduced price. Air Canada mainline probably disappears, but that is supposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigol Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Thank you Sir Dagger, you do have a better way with words and business sense than do I. In what form or for how long JAZZ will live will be anyone's guess. I have heard of a "plan B" in the works, but it's only hearsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Dude, if you don't think there's Plans B, C, D and E, at the least, I have a slightly used regional airline I'd like to sell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buck Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 You are correct...all assets of Air Canada would liquidate as well, according to a bankrupcy lawyer I spoke with. On the upside, if there is one, is the number 1 secured creditor of the assets of the airline, are the employees themselves, due to the pension shortfalls. The pension shortfalls, supercede the CCAA, partially due the fact, that the funds that were suppose to be used to fund the pension shortfalls, were in fact used to run the airline since 2001. This money belongs to the employees of the corporation, hence, they become the # 1 secured creditor. As administrator of the pension fund, Air Canada breached it's fiduciary duty in it's management of these pensions. That is one of the reasons the company has been reluctant to produce an up to date accounting of the shortfalls. Also, the board of directors, and management of the airline may be held liable for these shortfalls, if it can be proven that these funds were used in a fraudlent manner. They cannot get off the hook by resigning. I believe this to be the only reason they backed off on their demand to reduce pension benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Richard, At a current road show we were told that there is a 'Plan B' in the works should the creditors not like 'Plan A'. Also, if any union does not ratify their TA then a 'Plan C' could be put forward in minimal time. My personal interpretation of this would mean that some work is being done right now on a 'Plan C' proposal should it be necessary. I think that many unions are doing just this - preparing for several scenarios. Nobody wants to consider liquidation and I am under the impression the A, B and C are three options to avoid it. I have not heard from any sources - till now - that there is anything like a plan D or E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Damn, and I had to open my big mouth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 News flash, Nigol. If AC liquidates, JAZZ is office furniture. Sorry, dude. There's more than enough bad news for everyone here, but wishful thinking doesn't do anyone any good. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 News flash, Richard. If AC liquidates, Jazz is still part of Plans B, C and maybe D and E. I think that "Jazz would be office furniture" is wishful thinking of you mainline pilot types who plan on betting the whole shop to keep and much as you can for yourself. May not work this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 ...and let's not forget plan 'Q' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bianchiboy Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 "Preparations A through G were complete and utter failures, but on the `hole`, Preparation H feels good..." - Dr. Evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jazzplayer Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 To Neo, And it is a very large mouth at that. What are you this week, ACPA's lawyer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 "...wishful thinking of you mainline pilot types..."? I can't speak for the others of course, but this mainline pilot wishes that there will be rewarding jobs for every regional and mainline pilot that can be retained at this time, and a positive future with AC for those unlucky enough to be laid off temporarily. I'm pretty sure that my perspective has never changed from that in any post that I've made on AEF since arriving here several years ago. You will recall that my response to Nigol was to his claim that if AC dies, JAZZ survives. This is wishful thinking, John. There is no surety WHATSOEVER that JAZZ will remain a going concern in any incarnation, should AC liquidate. For every scenario that you can dream up for a viable JAZZ future, I can come up with one that sees it flushed down the toilet. There's no point in any of us pretending to have leverage that we don't really have. In their wisdom, the regional pilots have already signed their agreement and so your die is cast. Your fate now rests with the mainline pilots and what they decide to do. You put yourselves in that position; no one else did it for you. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 Jeez, jazzplayer, who urinated in your Frosty's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goggles Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 "There is no surety WHATSOEVER that JAZZ will remain a going concern in any incarnation, should AC liquidate." The remaining value of AC's assets have to do with their revenue making potential. So it wouldn't make any sense for the creditors to dissolve the operation(s). I think that should bankruptcy come about, Jazz stands a good chance of being sold as a whole entity to the highest bidder. Of course, the aircraft leases would have to be renegociated with the new owner. As far as the mainline, it would be a bit more difficult, since the management is much bigger. I do think various components could be split up and the bidders could acquire the leases and personnel for a certain fleet type that they would consider as having potential. Pilots especially would be retained out of seniority. Consider very seriously about the consequences of voting no, because you could wind up with nothing, even if you're senior, but happen to be flying an aircraft that no one wants to operate. Goggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 I agree with you, Goggles. The value to many of AC's assets post-liquidation will depend on the revenue-making potential. So, imagine you're an investor thinking about where to put money right now. Are you going to put it into a remnant of JAZZ, and throw your money up against the WestJet/Jetsgo juggernaut? Well, that's certainly your prerogative. I have a feeling the investors won't be lining up, though. Or consider this hypothetical scenario. AC liquidates and puts JAZZ up for sale. The highest bid comes from WestJet, who of course simply 'mismanage' JAZZ into a coma, and avoid having all that competition. The scenarios are endless, Goggles. I don't have a crystal ball, but neither does anyone else. But one thing I can guarantee, wishing it so will not make it so. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 Westjet perhaps but Jetsgo??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 What if this ' remnant of JAZZ' turns out to be the new cost effective national airline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sam of Old Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 Nope! I'm willing to bet that ACPA is putting as much distance as they can between them and "Neo". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1V2Vgo Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 Splendid reply Jazzplayer, fell right off my fancy chair with the wheels on it. One point that I think may be worth making: Jazz is a separate CCAA filing, and a separate entity. This has most interesting implications if we proceed beyond plan A. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Perhaps I'm missing something, John. What is the difference between "what if" and wishful thinking, precisely? Have you got a, "here's how it's going to work" for us? Have you got an investor telling you, "Here's what we'll do for you after the meltdown."? If you have something like that, then you're going somewhere. If not, you have wishful thinking. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Touche! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AME Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 dagger Under the new corporate structure in which Air Canada Enterpises owns AC mainline, JAZZ and ZIP (Aeroplan, Destina etc...) as seperate units, is JAZZ actually an asset of mainline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goggles Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 "So, imagine you're an investor thinking about where to put money right now. Are you going to put it into a remnant of JAZZ, and throw your money up against the WestJet/Jetsgo juggernaut?" What you're missing is that the sale is going to be a bidding exercise. The seller is not going to dictate the selling price; they'll try to get whatever they can. You can be sure that Jazz will be serious competition to WJ, what with its extensive network, bargain basement selling price, and given that its debt will have been written off. It also won't be constrained by any scope clauses. A very attractive investment at the right price. That's for the immediate. The future doesn't garantee that they'll be a success though. But that shouldn't deter the potential investors from making a bid for it. In the meantime, Jazz pilots will keep their relative seniority, have a job, at least for a couple of more years, and you probably won't. Goggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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