Guest Starman Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 You mentioned below that you are one of the 243 AC originals hired in the mid 80's. I have no idea what ratio Keller intends to use, but let's assume that the new list does closely mirror a DOH, and see how this really affects you. You must be, under Mitchnick, about 200 numbers ahead of a DOH position. If Keller's list is close to DOH, you'll move back 200 (but there will be a "no bump, no flush"). However, because of CDN's demographics, approx. 150 of the 200 CDN guys, now ahead of you, will be older than you, so the effect is reduced over time on a sliding scale until there are 50 ahead by the time you retire. I'm sure it wouldn't make you happy, but it's hardly the career destroying event that many posters like yourself are portraying it as. And that assumes that Keller is close to DOH, which it may be nowhere near, and that there are no fences involved to further protect your position. There have also been references made to AC originals laid off because of Keller. There are 364 pilots hired since the merge who are unaffected by Keller, and if just a few pilots take early retirement, there will be no lay offs of original AC or original CDN pilots in the company's desire to reduce the pilot ranks by up to 400. I know it's an emotional issue on both sides, but a little rational thinking would go a long way at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ywg396 Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 A few minor things... "no flush no bump" means squat when we are looking at a downbid situation. You can get bumped out of your seat and may have to move to another base to maintain status. You will then you lose any reinstatement rights to your previous seat. Keller moved the date of the merge to oct 17, since then about 176 guys were hired. So, before you tell us that things are not so bad, read your contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I know it's an emotional issue on both sides, but a little rational thinking would go a long way at this point. I agree with your last statement, and I thank you for the civil tone of your reply. It's a refreshing change from 95% of what is posted on this website. However, I disagree with your math and, apparently, your concept of fairness. By my calculations, a DOH list would cost me about 450 numbers over and above Mitchnick. No bump, no flush is small comfort, as it does not prevent losses due to normal down-sizing. RIRs don't last forever and would complicate your scenario. I'm still waiting, though, for someone to address my question regarding the effect on my blue counterparts. They would gain the instant advantage of acquiring left seats on the A320. That's quite a windfall for someone who was an F/O pre-merger. I can't see how anyone would consider that to be a fair outcome, especially considering the sacrifices others are making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starman Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 First for ywg396 - The keller date doesn't change the fact that the 364 will remain at the bottom of the list, and therefore first on the layoff list. I have AC friends who were hired in 85 and 86. They are around 200 numbers ahead of a DOH position under Mitchnick. Some CDN F/O's on the 320 pre-merger might have the seniority under a DOH type list to hold left seat, but they'd have to wait for a vacancy and in this environment, that may be a while coming. But it's been over three years since the merge anyway. In either company, F/O's might have advanced from right to left seat on the 320 over a three year time span in any case. If the Keller award allows both sides to advance in their careers in a similar fashion that it would have been had the companies remained separate, what's wrong with that solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 MCDU, I'm glad people can see where the possibilities of Keller could actually lead. As you do your seniority calculations, why don't you try this little exercise. Into the numbers you've already run, add these possibilities: 1. That CAIL retirements go to CAIL pilots first. 2. That the x-CRA pilots receive a 1988 DOH. How are those numbers looking now for the mid-seniority bracket? neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I don't think you'd find a single former AC pilot who would wish anything other than that they could have their pre-merger career prospects returned to them. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Ex-CRA pilots would move up about 1100 numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 If the Keller award allows both sides to advance in their careers in a similar fashion that it would have been had the companies remained separate, what's wrong with that solution? Nothing, except that if it resembles DOH- it wouldn't. Take a look at EAB35 and pilots like Soltau or Casey. How likely would it have been that they would have acquired any left seat at a pre-merge CAIL? On the corresponding AC Bid 00-02, pilots with '95 DOHs such as Athanasiou were already holding A320C. And, replacement vacancies happen all the time as retirements factor into the equation, so the windfall could happen almost immediately for blue F/Os. I still can't see where anyone would consider that "fair". Anyway, thanks for the dialogue. It's important that we try to walk the proverbial mile in pre-owned footware. ;-) cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Go Around Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Take a good hard look at how your "pre-merger career prospects" were provided. Fifty years of protection, privatization with full pockets and a huge market share advantage from fifty years of protection. Then a predatory pricing campaign that eliminated all competition - till now!! Air Canada was sinking before it merged with Canadian. It just would have taken a little longer to reach this stage. Predatory pricing policies had severely weakened it and it had to be successful in obtaining a monopoly or it would fail. What Air Canada management failed to realize was that as each soldier fell, another stood behind ready to fight. Whats happening now was inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nozel Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 inline of the Picher award circumvented by calpa to acpa end run... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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