Guest Rob Assaf Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 There is lots of guessing as what is going to happen and what is happening now. It is really pointless. I don't even know (for Mike Sowsuns benefit) what OUR tentative agreement is yet! Guessing what ACPA may or may not be up to is pointless. I hope that they are assuring the survival of at least some of their jobs! There has been a lot of hype about accessing our list if we actually do get some RJ's and need to hire pilots. Fact one, ALPA does not do the hiring, the company does, we simply put them on the seniority list when they are hired. I personally do not have any problem with giving laid off AC pilots first shot at the jobs after any furloughed jazz pilots are recalled, however one has to consider the following. If the mainline furloughs 600+ pilots as is rumoured they want to, with the number of retirements at mainline over the next few years, they SHOULD all be recalled within 4 years or so. So given that, why would Jazz as a company want to hire mainline guys that would only be there for a relatively short time when they would could hire T3 guys that would be at Jazz for the longer haul? (training costs, etc) Again, just looking at it from a company point of view with cost savings in mind. What if we are either sold or in the process of being sold? How do you work that in? We are technically seperate companies already but a sale would remove the last possible claim to common employer (a claim, I might point out, that was defeated at the labour board level already) I really hope that a crossair/swissair scenario doesn't arise. Mainline being folded and the employees being told to apply at the regional for a job, that would be too topsy turvy a situation to develop. While I think that a somewhat smaller mainline and and somewhat larger regional may be the answer to everyones survival, that is where I hope this all lands, nothing more. Controlling costs and generating profits has to be a priority. The creditors demand it, they want their money. They would rather have an operating profitable company over a liquidated one but I wouldn't push them too hard about now, there is no money in the pot. There are no chips in the pile, there is no clout. Better to live and fight another day I say, best of luck to all in the days ahead. Cheers (I hope), Rob Assaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 The Swiss air thing didn't work. They are losing buckets full of money everyday and will likely shutdown if this present climate is sustained. As far as expansion at the connectors. The people who have been gloating that they have slain the beast known as ACPA are doing so prematurely in my view. This is a long way from over. These sorts of processes can take as long as 18 months. Nick and his crew may have been played for the biggest bunch of suckers in aviation history. The answer to that question will be apparent next year. Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 ...Nick and his crew may have been played for the biggest bunch of suckers in aviation history. On the other hand Don and especially Rainier could be the best thing that ever happened to Nick & his crew. Time will tell. Y'know Labtec, your reply to the Assaf posting demonstrates, once again, why it is so hard to build bridges in this industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest qtip Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Labtec, My guess is that Jazz will see 20 new RJ'S right off the bat, then another 25 from the mainline followed by 25-30 new 70 to 75 seat frames and then a process as you know to access up to 110 seat frames. I don't think that this model at Jazz will break the company. Do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powermatic Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 You should be very proud! All for 100 bucks an hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 100 bucks an hour? It gets better than that...cheaper FA's, cheaper agents, cheaper SOC, cheaper maintenance...it's almost what they've been looking for the entire time, and it was right there under their noses. Wonder what and IS still preventing it all from happening? We fly bigger equipment, which gives an easier work condition than typical Dash work anyway..all the while taking home close to what we've had. You don't think ACPA is selling the farm out trying to keep it all for ACPA pilots? IMO opinion a lot of the ACPA contract could be saved from Milton's gross and greedy shopping list (we've seen it too) if ACPA let the scope fall in line with what EVERY other carrier in the world allows. What other mainline flies the RJ? Why does ACPA not try and get a deal for the bottom affected seniority numbers to share the new aircraft with Jazz? RB and DJ to proud to return the dozen phone calls? To answer your 'jibe', yes I'm proud of my MEC. They've worked long and hard, and done an excellent job helping the Jazz pilots preserve there work conditions and giving the AC 'family' an option to survive. ACPA should read the Jazz contract, its pretty good and a lot better than EI for the junior members getting sold out. Of course....this again is all speculation on my part, and we are nowhere near a victory for anyone. It would be nice to have everyone win...which is still possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TonkaJet Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 At least you can get off your soap box and stop saying that WestJet has lowered the bar in aviation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TonkaJet Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 At least you can get off your soap box and stop saying that WestJet has lowered the bar in aviation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 What ever your stripe, you can't honestly believe what is happening is good for pilots and our profession. I have seen the ALPA document and it doesn't look like a step forward to me. It reminds me of a walk I once took on the beach in Vancouver. I was walking on the beach in Vancouver near Kitts and saw a guy down the way collecting something and putting it into one of two buckets. One bucket had a lid and the other had none. As I got closer I saw he was catching crabs as the tide had rolled out. He would pick up one crab and toss it into the bucket without the lid and catch another and put it in the bucket with the lid. They looked the same to me. I asked how come he had a bucket with a lid and a bucket without. He said the crabs look the same but the ones in the bucket without the lid are ALPA crabs, and the ones in the bucket with the lid are ACPA crabs. Sure enough every time he put an ACPA crab in the bucket with the lid they would all be at the edge trying to escape, snapping and clawing at the man at every opportunity. The ALPA crabs just stayed at the bottom of there bucket and fought amongst themselves for their turf within the confines of their bucket. As more and more of them were caught (they were much easier to catch than the ACPA crabs) they began to violently turn on one another. They plainly ignored the man and he could put his hand in the bucket and the ALPA crabs just ignored him. everytime an ALPA crab tried to get out of the bucket another ALPA crab would pull the escaping crab back in. 12th year scale at 100/hour? I am leaving the bucket you ALPA crabs can have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 What ever your stripe, you can't honestly believe what is happening is good for pilots and our profession. I have seen the ALPA document and it doesn't look like a step forward to me. It reminds me of a walk I once took on the beach in Vancouver. It was near Kitts. I saw a guy down the way collecting something and putting it into one of two buckets. One bucket had a lid and the other had none. As I got closer I saw he was catching crabs as the tide had rolled out. He would pick up one crab and toss it into the bucket without the lid and catch another and put it in the bucket with the lid. The crabs placed into the bucket with the lid fought and snapped, kicked and hissed. They looked the same to me. I asked how come he had a bucket with a lid and a bucket without. He said the crabs look the same but the ones in the bucket without the lid are ALPA crabs, and the ones in the bucket with the lid are ACPA crabs. Sure enough every time he put an ACPA crab in the bucket with the lid they would all be at the edge trying to escape, snapping and clawing at the man at every opportunity. The ALPA crabs fought amongst themselves for their turf within the confines of their bucket. As more and more of them were caught (they were much easier to catch than the ACPA crabs) they began to violently turn on one another. They plainly ignored the man and he could put his hand in the bucket and the ALPA crabs would continue to fight each other for an ever decreasing space in the bucket. Everytime an ALPA crab tried to get out of the bucket another ALPA crab would pull the escaping crab back to the bottom. 12th year scale at 100/hour? I am leaving the bucket you ALPA crabs can have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Virtual Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 And what happened with that bucket of WestJet crabs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 What the heck are you babbling about. Aren't you the same LABTEC that just a few short weeks ago was ranting about how over paid the JAZZ pilots were?? I have no idea what the guys negotiated but a 100 after 12 years would be a raise ,,, I don't think that is gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 I have never said Jazz pilots were overpaid. I said they weren't lo-cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Sowsun Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 "I have never said Jazz pilots were overpaid. I said they weren't lo-cost." That reminds me of something that Mickey Mouse once said to his divorce lawyer: "I didn't say my wife was crazy. I said she was &%$@! Goofy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.70 mach Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Lets remember all our jobs are going to be changing in the next little while. 100/hr as a 12 year Jazz Capt.....if thats overpaid what is your comment above from Buzz a 6 year 340 Cruiser at 100/hr? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Are Dash 8 pilots overpaid? Not in my book. They should earn more. The argument put forward several weeks ago on this board was that JAZZ was already the Lo-cost airline. I disputed that. They make a decent living flying 34-50 seat Turbo-props, and now 10 CL65's. For the type of work that they do on the dash 8 are they a lo-cost carrier? Not even close. The American equivalents earn a hell of a lot loss based in some of the most expensive cities in the United States. Many pilots down there qualify for food government supplement programs. They are truly lo-cost. Is this good? Not if you are a pilot and value this profession. The connector pilots will be lo-cost if they get the 320's. However, we might as well all pack it in and do something else if this occurs. Should an airline pilot earn less than an electrician or a Drywaller? If Nick gets his way they will. Enjoy the view because if this thing goes the way some are hoping that is all you will have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JazzPilot Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Jazz is not going to get the 320's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Why would they give us the 320's? Jazz and Mainline just want the regional aircraft at the regional company, just like ALL other airlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 ALPA has signed a letter of intent with Jazz management that leaves open the possibility of bidding on 110 seats or less. That's a 319. If you have the 319's why not the 320's and the 321's its the same type rating. It started with 34 seat turbo-props now we're talking up to 110 seats I don't think it will stop there. There is a great article in the May 3rd issue of the economist regarding all of this. Let's just say if it goes the way they are talking, as a Canadian, you'll be lucky to have a job at the regional or the Mainline period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Loved your parable, Labtec. The only part you omitted was that when the fisherman was Picher, the ACPA crabs kicked over the ALPA crabs bucket, screwed them all, and ran away. IMHO buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 "possibility of bidding on 110 seats or less. That's a 319." Not according to the way ACPA has defined seat groupings. Whether that definition has any relevence or not is moot IMO. Infact the 146 is over that limit. What ALPA has signed is the potential right to fly smaller equipement than they currently do, or had the right to fly before ACPA unilaterally changed the rules. "It started with 34 seat turbo-props" I disagree. Where it started is when AC aquired other carriers that were free and unfetterd by Gov't regulation and the AC pilots chose, no DEMANDED, that the employee groups be kept seperate. A union that has as it's reason for existence seperation and exclusion is no union at all. IMHO If your interested in a good read on the subject I would recomend a little piece by a guy named Pichet dated Mar. 28 1995. His prediction are bang on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airway Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 At a 32" seat pitch, all Y, a 318 seats 117, a 319 seats 134 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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