Guest Fleet80 Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 I just don't get the silence from all the airline industry stakeholders. Sure it looks self-serving when union heads issue press releases about pensions and wages, but why isn't Mississauga Mayor McCallion screaming at the feds for some smidgen of support for one of the largest employers in her riding? Where are the Vancouver, Winnipeg, Montreal, and Calgary mayors? Why aren't the bondholders of the privatized Air Navigation system yelling for federal relief for the industry - fuel taxes, airport rents, GST, security fees, electricity bills - all are government charges sucking cash out of a bleeding industry. Where are the corporate bosses - CAE, Bombardier, Boeing, and a thousand small suppliers to our industry, the provincial ministers that have sunk millions into call centers and infrastructure, the business associations in Grande Prairie and Saskatoon and Charlottetown. The U.S. has spent billions propping up the industry and yet our federal ministers won't even comment on our crisis. Meanwhile, Jean Chretien announces a $200 million grant to build a new museum to the glory of Canadian politics, the Public Works department spends $200 million/year advertising itself, and the cattle ranchers of Alberta instantly get full federal and provincial assurances that they'll get paid "full market value" for each and every cow lost to BSE. Try thumbing through the paper on Monday and count the dollars spent by our bureaucrats on opera houses, rolling stones concerts, peace keeping, museums, milk subsidies, the gun registry, bilingualism, railroads, wheat farmers, drought relief, mosquito relief, electricity bill relief, the CBC, the post office, and ask yourself "what the #$@@ is going on here? It's a mindless madness only in Canada eh, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 What the &%$@! is right,Dont get me going Fleet80,Jean Chretien and the rest of the fed's our looking out for them self's here,Its almost the end of the Librels term and they don't want to spend tax $ on a airline bailout and lose the public vote,I think thats the game that is being played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest A310 Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 So what do you suggest? A mindless bailout of Air Canada. Maybe the stakeholders are waiting to see a credible plan from Air Canada before any public money is spent. Air Canada has had more than its share of 'easy' money in the past and pouring good money into bad will not change anything. The corporate bosses and vendors are all going to take a haircut and would like to see if it is worth it first. So when you make a list of government excess as a reason that Air Canada should get support, remember one thing: Air Canada is already on the list. Mind you - the gun registry is in a league of its own. A310 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Retyred Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 Fleet- You by any chance a CUPE script writer..if not, you should be. You ask " what the #@$ is goin' on " ?? With all the rhetoric 'flying' around'..I'd suggest the more pertinent question will be.."Will Air Canada (as we know it) be goin' on" ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 A310 do you think it's a mindless bailout in the UNITED STATES. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest A310 Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 What is going on in the States is not the same thing. Airlines there are suffering primarily from the fallout of Sept 11 and future terrorist threat. Most of Air Canada's problems predate Sept 11th and SARs. In addition, there is no equivalent in the States. AC was a crown corp released to private sector with a clean slate, money in the bank and a virtual monopoly. Again, the stakeholders are waiting for a substansive plan. Anyhow - I would bet money on a major in the states going under. American Airlines for example is a sorry excuse for a major airline. A310 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 A310 Air Canada was not privatized with a clean balance sheet. This myth has been told so many times that people like yourself have come to believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest A310 Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Why don't you enlighten me then. Did Air Canada pay the tax payer for all of the aircraft owned? Did Air Canada pay the tax payer for all of the facilities owned? Did Air Canada pay the tax payer for the structure and route system which was mandated through the years? Did Air Canada pay the tax payer for the gift of a virtual monopoly? Did Air Canada not benefit from a public offerring or did that money go to the tax payer? What did Air Canada assume? The lease obligations of a few aircraft? Oh I am sorry - they had to service a few small markets and provide bilingual service - big deal. Air Canada used their advantage to put the competition out of business - always 'knowing' or at least hoping that if things got bad then the tax payers would come back to the rescue because Air Canada is the 'flag carrier.' Transat, Skyservice, Westjet, Canjet et al have the Canadian flag on the fuselage - Flag carriers. Good luck AC and welcome to the real world. A310 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Virtual Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 I think that most of the employees at AC have been in your so-called 'real world'. As in WestJet, CanJet, Skyservice .... many of the employees started out in the same kind of places/companies, and it's only circumstance that has led them to their present company. Many employed in AC have been laidoff/furloughed countless times before. To 'blanket' these employees and wish them ill-will by making many of your statements, is a sad commentary of your own issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest A310 Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 I don't wish ill will to any AC employee. The string started out with the posed question as to why none of the stakeholders or politicians were asking for a gov't bailout to assist AC. As a tax payer I find that repugnent. AC is a victim of its own imperious management practices and strategies and unfortunately some employees are going to suffer because of this. Air Canada would just continue on with its old system if given any aid and eventually we would be back where we started. A310 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 This has been gone over so many times on this forum and yet it keeps coming up. AC paid far more back to the gov't in dividends and loan repayments than it received from gov't. It was privatized with a debt of 1.5 billion. The initial share offering was 50% to fund the airline and 50% to the taxpayer. Bottom line is the taxpayers did very well during the time they owned AC. (It's unfortunate that the private sector hasn't done as well.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Did Air Canada pay the tax payer for all of the aircraft owned? --Yes Did Air Canada pay the tax payer for all of the facilities owned? --Yes except for the YWG maintenance hanger Did Air Canada pay the tax payer for the structure and route system which was mandated through the years? What structure do you mean? Did Air Canada pay the tax payer for the gift of a virtual monopoly? --Air Canada paid back all gov't loans plus interest and dividends. The tax payer did very well by owning AC. Did Air Canada not benefit from a public offerring or did that money go to the tax payer? It was 50/50 What did Air Canada assume? The lease obligations of a few aircraft? Oh I am sorry - they had to service a few small markets and provide bilingual service - big deal. Air Canada used their advantage to put the competition out of business - always 'knowing' or at least hoping that if things got bad then the tax payers would come back to the rescue because Air Canada is the 'flag carrier.' Transat, Skyservice, Westjet, Canjet et al have the Canadian flag on the fuselage - Flag carriers. Good luck AC and welcome to the real world. -- We are certainly facing the real world at this time, just as we always have. (Not quite so vividly mind you. ) Air Canada has had to compete like everyone else. We are all after the same customers. Some have done better than others. WJ is a good example of a company that has done well. It has reduced AC's market share considerably and probably had far more to do with the demise of CDN than AC did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B75/76 Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 "It has reduced AC's market share considerably and probably had far more to do with the demise of CDN than AC did." You must be joking! AC was gunning for CDN since its inception during the late 80's. AC and CDN were into to the final rounds of a heavy weight tilt when WJ came along. Did their arrival help CDN? No. Was it the majority reason for CDN's demise? No. IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Of course AC was gunning for CDN, in just the same way that CDN was gunning for AC. We were both competing for the same passenger. As Hollois Harris said, "CAIL is our competitor, not oue enemy". WJ is a well run airline with good people. They are a formidable competitor and they are forcing us to change in order to compete. When it was AC vs CAIL there was no need to make massive changes as we both followed the same basic business model. WJ has changed all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest A310 Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 You had me going there for a second - and then you go off and propose that WJ had more to do with the demise of CDN than AC. Good one. A310 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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