Gumbi Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 I'd sure like to get a straight answer on this one, or am I losing my time? Yesterday night, on our way from YMX to YYZ, cruising at 350, we're asked, by YUL, to increase our speed to .82 for sequencing into YYZ. After checking in with YYZ, we're cleared PD to 240 and keep your best forward speed in descent so we set up for .82/320. At about FL260 descending, we're asked to reduce to... 270 kts and cross WASIE at 7000' (which at this point becomes almost quasi-impossible since we have to reduce speed by 50 kts and thus become so much higher on our profile, remember the best forward speed?) So, we manage to make the WASIE restriction at 7000 and further reduction to 210kts thanks to FULL speed brakes!!! We're then transfered to APP CTRL, who asks us what speed we're doing, and since we tell him 210kts , he clears us on a 190 hdg RV for 23 LOC. He then turns us on a 220hdg for Xcept of 23 LOC but keeps us at 7000 until we're 16 DME and reduces us to 160kts and then almost in panic asks us to maintain no more than 160 to the marker and clears us for the ILS!!!!!( there's a A320 5 miles ahead) All the while, we were hearing airplanes being issued "times leaving YSO"... First question: could someone explain the necessity of applying such inapropriate and erratic speed control (I dare anyone to sit in the back of a plane being issued such restrictions...) at an airport which can use 3 rwys simultaneously and with severe VFR conditions prevailing? Second question: Do you guys talk to each other from sector to sector on the handoff? I'm really looking forward to an informative discussion on this one, believe me...! Gumbi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest righthandman Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Oh yeah, this brings back memories. I enjoyed flying into YYZ (for the reasons given)about as much as I enjoyed driving in the traffic there, once on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chiselcharter Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 So in essence, you don't see the big picture. AC dispatch can produce a flight plan from TLV-YYZ, a 12 hour flight and be within a couple of minutes of air time. ATC with accesss to the same or greater information equiped with there own system departure times cannot input numbers into a computer to calculate the flight planned arrival times into North America's most expensive and arrogant airport. Is it that the system is 'too hands on' or are the controllers (not my term) disreguarding the information or is the information not available? I've looked on many controllers fridges but could not find an answer, perhaps you can enlighten us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mars Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 The 'Big Picture' would be every aircraft airborne everywhere and, yes we have a system for that. However, it is only good on a strategic level and is used for flow control and ground delays etc. It is of little use to the single controller in 'his airspace' on a real time tactical basis. Yet, the sector under a controller's jurisdiction is a much bigger picture than the one you have on your flight deck. Your priority is your aircraft and your aircraft alone (traffic scanning and situational awareness excepted), and rightly so. The controllers concern is to enable ALL aircraft within his airspace to pass through the sector as safely (first and foremost) and efficiently as possible. As well, the heavier the traffic the smaller geographically a sector is likely to be (staff permitting). The 'big picture' for any controller is their sector, adjacent sectors and the traffic between them. We cannot worry about what the situation is 2-3 sectors (or ACC's) away except to implement requests on spacing/speed/altitude before hand-off. BUT our own sector traffic flow comes first. Also don't forget that radio transmissions alone are not indicative of workload; a lot of hot-line and phones calls are going on concurrently. Controller A may have in his sector 3 streams of traffic from different directions heading for fix ABC and must integrate all 3 into 1 before hand-off so he may speed you up into a slot, but slow the next guy. After hand-off controller B has to take that group and intergrate it with another stream he received from controller C on the opposite side. So now he has to slow you down and maybe speed the next guy up, making you wonder what the %#*&. Remember we can't possibly now all the actions (that would be a coordination nightmare - cure worse than the diease)the previous controller took to integrate each aircraft in the traffic he had, but still have to deal with your flight (and the others) with respect to the traffic in the current sector. Actually a rather simplistic explanation, but hopefully you get the idea. No two situations are ever the same and alot of judgement is used, sometimes in error (meaning "maybe I should have slowed the other guy"), but mostly with skill and pride in doing the best job possible. Don't forget that many things (staffing, weather, procedures, etc.) have a large impact as well. Once again don't blame the messenger(controller):-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Awesome description, mars. Thanks for filling us in on the big picture from your side. I'm a wiser, if not smarter man. Best, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lumpy Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Chiselcharter; Seems to me you have controller fridge envy. Seek help!{smiley face with a wink}. Lump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Velvet Fog Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 For Chiselcharter: Congratulations on your flight planning. how about a realistic example...flights from YYT,YHZ,YOW, YQB, YFC, YQM and YUL all arrive at YYZ at the same time. They all come over YSO within about 5 minutes. Would you expect a 2 minute gate hold in Charlottetown to ensure do sequencing? Think before you type! Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crazylady Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I have spent so much time discussing issues such as this. Firstly is the matter of MANOPS, which is I believe, approved by TC, so destined never to change without significant fees (read bribe), or the situation conecerning CADORS, another federal program to collect income. I have had a beer, so I have also paid that federal tax, but the fees above are more examples of fees without additional service, and in some cases, reduced service! At least I don't live in Islamabad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MikePapaKilo Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Okay, I'll bite, what is the "situation conecerning (sic) CADORS" ? And, do you mean to say that all we have to do to make things easier for controllers is to bribe somebody to change their manual of operastions ? Where do we throw the money ? MPK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MikePapaKilo Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Okay, I'll bite, what is the "situation conecerning (sic) CADORS" ? And, do you mean to say that all we have to do to make things easier for controllers is to bribe somebody to change their manual of operations ? Where do we throw the money ? Must be some kinda beer..... MPK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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