YYZ ATC

[Guest Pull Up]

Anyone know why in YYZ we still don't often use 6R/24L. Flew all weekend and the first half of this week, and almost always had to land on 05/23 then do the 15 minute taxi to the east beach. Usually controllers were using 06L/24R for departures, and 05/23 for arrivals. Can't we start using the runways to a level that they should be able to accomodate, and use that expensive 24R/6L?

[Guest Max Continuous]

We used 06R for arrivals, three times yesterday with a brief delay inbound holding short of 06L for departures.

On the way out we were number 12 with a 21 minute delay, and only slightly over AFPAC planned taxi fuel. I personally think that ATC at Pearson is operating pretty effciently right now, considering the taxi closures and construction.

I'd personally like to know why everything outbound from terminal 2 has be routed through the centre ramp short of AM? Why not an exit at DT or DV for a transition to Delta with departures on 06L or transition to Alpha off 05?

[Guest yyzfreak]

I wonder if you guys would still complain if the auto pilot could taxi you in.

[Guest Nobias]

It could be because, in Toronto, you never know what to expect. Will you be vectored to intercept the glidepath from above? There's a good chance of it. Will you be landing on a runway that will give you a fifteen or twenty knot crosswind? You sure might be. Does this happen in New York, Chicago, London, Paris, Amsterdam, or any other busy airports. Why no, no it doesn't, at least not often. It's something endemic to Toronto, or so it seems. Does this cause frustration sometimes? What do you think?

[Guest Nobias]

Ahhh, such charming condescension, what a refreshing change. In any event, I’ll attempt to be less abstruse this time. It’s just a polite way of saying, “What the he//?” For example, a controller tells you that you will be getting a twenty or twenty-five mile final, and you want to say, “What the he//?” You realize, however, that it might be imprudent to do so. Instead, you ask, “What sequence are we?”

So, was that as good as you thought it would be?

[Guest Nobias]

All right, I will try this one more time, and will try to be as clear as I possibly can. In general, there is not a need to know where in the sequence you sit, other than for interest’s sake. Like you say, if you know how long your final is going to be, that gives you a pretty good idea of how long it will be until you land. The question about the sequence is, more often than not, an editorial comment. It is almost, but not quite, a rhetorical question.

Here is an analogy for you. You call your bank to ask them how long it will take for a cheque to clear. They give you an answer that is substantially longer than you would expect. You ask them, “How long is it going to take?” You are not really looking for the answer to that question; you are just trying to express your surprise in a polite way.

I suppose there are probably some pilots who feel better knowing how many planes will be landing before they get to land. It gives them something concrete to justify the long distance they will be flying on final. Is it required information for planning how they will fly the approach? Probably not, particularly because speed control is such an integral part of traffic separation technique in Toronto, i.e. you are almost always assigned a hard speed.

Of course, I am only speaking for myself and out of my experience. But the above is my observation.

[Guest qb]

Do you have something against pilots trying to improve their situational awareness? In other parts of the world they not only tell you your sequence they tell you how many 'track miles' you have left to fly. It's enormously helpful in planning your deceleration and descent and as pilots we feel it enhances safety as well to have as much as we can get of the 'big picture'.

Do you have a problem with that, dear?

qb

[Guest HPT-TOUR]

Good response Nancy. This is funny, it seems its only acpa that needs to know their sequence. Do you ever hear any other`s asking for it. Talk about situational awareness.

[Guest bucko]

Nancy:

Good question....surprised none of the experts on the forum can give a honest question a honest answer.

Here is another one......how come when pilots ask for descent, and they receive the clearance, thay ask back "is that pilot's discretion?"

That always had me baffled.

cheers

[Guest bucko]

....hey not fair....I'm an acpa guy and have never asked that btw....I can count my sequence on the TCAS if I feel the need to know

some of us really appreciate the job you do down there and what you controllers have to deal with in the yyz area......

cheers

[Guest Nobias]

I guess what it comes down to is that as pilots and controllers, we are bound to be inscrutable to each other, once in a while. But we are all just trying to do our jobs, the best we can, even though it's difficult sometimes and seems like we are working against each other. But I think, for the most part, we can probably appreciate the difficulties of each other's jobs. And I also know, that when I see airplanes on the TCAS like a flock of barn swallows, I'm just as glad that I have my job instead of yours.

[MCDU]

I think the question was asked by someone who was concerned about saving his employer a couple bucks.

[Guest neo]

Nancy,

I'd agree that in many cases sequence information is unnecessary. However, there are times when it can be useful information. Knowing your traffic can influence how precisely you're controlling your speed, for instance. At some airports if you're 12th in the approach stack you might ask for a simultaneous approach to a different runway. At some airports, (YVR being one) you're often given an approach sequence, but being given track miles to run is less common. If a pilot is familiar with that kind of controlling, they might ask for it elsewhere. Etc, etc.

As a general observation, controllers become intimately familiar with one airport whereas pilots become somewhat familiar with a good many. It's not always apparent to pilots why controllers want to do things a certain way, and vice versa. But there's usually a reasonable explanation for what both pilots and controllers want, even if that explanation isn't readily apparent to the other. If both pilots and controllers remember that the person on the other end of the conversation is the consummate professional and not given to making pointless requests, I'll bet we'd all be a lot happier.

Best,

neo

[Guest BillyBigToe]

Now qb, lets try and play nicely.